Do Lutherans save themselves?

[NoelFitz]

Perhaps this is not the place to discuss my problems with Lutherans.
But I am a member here and not a subscriber to a Protestant discussion group.

I think they (Lutherans/Reformed) claim that we are justified, made righteous, by choosing to accept Jesus as our Savior. If this is so do we not do this ourselves by our own choice? In other words do we get to heaven by our own free will? I accept Calvinists believe in predestination and thus for them the issue does not arise.
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I see in the www:
Simply put, justification is God’s act of pardoning the sinner and declares the sinner as righteous in His sight. This is possible through the sinner’s faith in Jesus Christ,(3)(4) who was punished for the sins of everyone so that anyone who believes in him will no longer suffer the consequences of sin.(5) In other words, Christ became the sinner in your place so that you will become righteous in the sight of God,(6) which makes you justified by God’s standards.
To to answer the question, “Can you be saved?” Yes, through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did.(7) Your justification or being made right with God is through the obedience of Christ(8), and not through your good works(9). Because of Christ’s obedience and death on the cross, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven, and you are no longer subject to the punishment that was once due.(10)

 

[FollowChrist34]

Uh, this is what Catholics believe too. If you are scandalized by the Lutherans on this, the Catholics should be positively sending you through the roof.

Catholicism teaches that the beginning of faith involves an act of free will, that the initiative comes from God, but requires free collaboration on the part of man: “The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration”. “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”

Lutherans believe they receive God’s grace through faith; it is God’s initiative, not man’s. Along the lines of above.

Personally I decided whoever is doing it, fine. As long as it’s happening I am ok. It being my becoming a Christian and achieving salvation. I err on the side of giving God credit; if he wants me to have it, he can let me know when I get there. Merit to me is a slippery slope.

 

[JonNC]

I think they (Lutherans/Reformed) claim that we are justified, made righteous, by choosing to accept Jesus as our Savior. If this is so do we not do this ourselves by our own choice?

First mistake is linking the Lutheran and Reformed traditions. Their soteriologies are different.

In all of the years I was Lutheran, I never heard the phrase "choosing to accept Jesus as Savior ". It is contrary to the monergistic understanding of that they hold.

 

[steido01]

A super-duper, extremely-condensed, overly-simplistic distinction between Lutheran and Reformed soteriology:

Lutherans do not “choose” to accept Jesus. All who are saved are saved by God alone. A dead man cannot choose to become alive. Likewise, a man who is spiritually dead in his sin cannot choose life in God. So only God can grant new life, which he does by Grace, received by man in Faith through Word and Sacrament.

So Lutherans admit that God predestines some to be saved. Most Reformed would agree with the Lutheran position up to this point. Here’s where they differ from Lutherans:

Lutherans profess single-predestination. So when God predestines some to salvation, this does not mean that God predestines others to damnation. Lutherans believe that Christ’s saving work on the Cross was for the entire world -everyone, not just the elect- but human beings have free will to “opt out.” In other words, those who receive salvation receive it from God; those who receive damnation bring it upon themselves.

Reformed folks generally hold to double predestination. This means they believe God predestines some to salvation, and predestines others to damnation. The Reformed Jesus’s death only covered believers, and humans don’t really have free will. In other words, the Reformed God isn’t particularly kind.

 

[ltwin]

I think they (Lutherans/Reformed) claim that we are justified, made righteous, by choosing to accept Jesus as our Savior. If this is so do we not do this ourselves by our own choice? In other words do we get to heaven by our own free will? I accept Calvinists believe in predestination and thus for them the issue does not arise.

You’re speaking here of the role of faith. Justified by faith alone. Faith is a gift from God. This is a non-issue.

 

[NoelFitz]

Part 1
Thanks for all the great replies. They are much appreciated. I subscribe to CAF, but not to the Protestant alternative, and do not know Protestant theologians.

The variety of answers are important.

FollowChrist34
I am not scandalized. The complete opposite is the case. Last year I was inundated with Luther, due to the 500th anniversary of the nailing of theses to a door.

I attended in our local Lutheran Church a liturgy. I was amazed how close it is to our Mass. Luther claimed there is no need to fast from mid-night before receiving Communion and that the liturgy could be in the vernacular. Recently we have come close to Lutherans, but they have come close to us. I have been reading Barclay’s Paul and the Gift and note nowadays the differences between us are small.

I read
But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8 NAB)
We love because he first loved us. (1 Jn. 4:19 NAB).
Catholics agree with these views.

[I note that Luther claimed he wore a cowl due to his own free choice, this implies he believed in free will, in spite of arguments with Erasmus. Free will has two meanings. From your answer you imply God’s grace is what saves. Was this a gratuitous gift or something earned by the merits of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection? I also note Luther believed in the Real Presence and sacraments, as do Catholics.]

JonNC
I had considered:
Lutheran = Reformed
Calvinist = Presbyterian = Protestant
Anglican = Episcopalian = Via Media (some claim they are Catholic).

You reply solves my problem. Lutherans are not Born-Again Christians, who are Evangelicals of one form or another. Catholics are not the only ones who differ among themselves. But faith can mean different things, for a Catholic it is accepting dogmas, for a Protestant it is trust in God, what we call the supernatural virtue of hope.

 

[NoelFitz]

Part 2

Steido01
Again we are using different definitions, we are back with Humpty Dumpty.
What you claim Lutherans believe is what Catholics believe. Augustine was a Catholic (all Christians were prior to the Reformation). We will not argue this here.

For me, Luther = single predestination, Calvinist = double predestination. Also, Luther = Pastor/exegist, Calvin = theologian/lawyer.

Catholics believe in prevenient (antecedent) grace, as my friend Prof Google (who is always correct) says

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology.

Luther or the Wesleys did not originate the idea of grace being a free gift of God, no more than Augustine. All Christians do have the NT.

In Catholic school I learned that grace is a gratuitous gift of God. Augustine held this prior to Luther. It may be unfair, but on his own a person cannot perform any meritorious act. Pelagians differ from Catholics on what grace means.

Itwin
You wrote ‘You’re speaking here of the role of faith. Justified by faith alone. Faith is a gift from God. This is a non-issue.’

We all agree faith is a gift and we are justified by faith. The ‘alone’ came in due to Luther. It is not in the NT. In the KJV ‘alone’ is used four times in the context of being left alone always, never in one of the Solae senses.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;g (Eph. 2:8 NAB)

We all have Paul and the Bible.

There is an issue for me.

In Ireland (Republic of) we usually mean Anglican when we use the term Protestant. They are usually closer to us than Lutherans. The defining point of being a Christian is the believe in Jesus as our Savior.

Usually when I submit a query to CAF I end up more confused that I usually am. Here I think there is clarity.

For Lutherans justification is not chosen, but for an Evangelical it is. Sounds odd!

 

[ltwin]

For Lutherans justification is not chosen, but for an Evangelical it is. Sounds odd!

This is an oversimplification of evangelical theology. Yes, we speak of making a decision for Christ when presenting the Gospel message to the unconverted, but those who go on to deeper formation and discipleship are taught about prevenient grace–the grace that goes before us preparing us for receiving Christ.

And when we give alter calls inviting people to accept Christ we also call those who feel the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. It is explicitly preached that the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word draws men and women to Christ and to repentance, and evangelical conversion testimonies will often note that before they ever made a decision to follow Christ, they felt the power of the Holy Spirit leading them to godly sorrow for sin and to a knowledge of their need for Christ.

 

[JonNC]

You reply solves my problem. Lutherans are not Born-Again Christians,

Lutherans would say they are born-again…at Baptism.

 

[steido01]

I attended in our local Lutheran Church a liturgy. I was amazed how close it is to our Mass… Recently we have come close to Lutherans, but they have come close to us. I have been reading Barclay’s Paul and the Gift and note nowadays the differences between us are small.

I’m glad you notice how close we’re getting, both in theology and practice! I hope the past year has been more of a chance to learn about other Christians than a nuisance.
Worship-wise, the Lutheran Divine Service is essentially the Roman Mass from before Council of Trent, with changes to the prayers said concerning the Sacrament. The Lutheran order of service has essentially remained unchanged since the Reformation, making it even older than the modern Roman Catholic Mass.

Luther claimed there is no need to fast from mid-night before receiving Communion and that the liturgy could be in the vernacular.

Mostly-true. Luther believed (and Lutherans teach) that the specific rubrics surrounding “how” to worship are indifferent to the actual Christian faith itself. So Lutherans are free to fast, but not required to. It’s good, respectful, pious practice observed by many Lutherans.
Regarding worship in the vernacular, I think most Roman Catholics today would agree with Lutherans that worship should always be understood by the people, as “Faith comes by hearing.”

What you claim Lutherans believe is what Catholics believe.

Well, not quite. There’s still a significant difference between what Lutherans and Catholics teach regarding the extent to which human “free” will is bound to sin.
There is also some confusion when Lutherans and Roman Catholics discuss “grace” because one can glean at least five different definitions of “grace” from the Catholic Catechism, and many Roman Catholics make additional distinctions. Lutherans essentially have just one definition of the word.

We will not argue this here.

Ok.

Luther or the Wesleys did not originate the idea of grace being a free gift of God, no more than Augustine.

Correct. It’s a small-c catholic (meaning “universal”) Christian concept.

 

[NoelFitz]

In Ireland (Republic of) what we call Protestants are Anglican/Episcopalians , and many of these claim to be Catholics. Lutherans are also not really Protestant, but reformed Catholics going back to the early Church of Augustine, not Thomas Aquinas… Only from Calvin do real Protestants appear. So asking an Irish Protestant about Protestantism will get Catholic ideas often.

A Protestant friend told me that the picture of Christ standing at the door and knocking shows a door with the handle on on the inside. When God calls one makes the decision to open and allow him in. Hence we justify ourselves by our free choice.

 

[ltwin]

A Protestant friend told me that the picture of Christ standing at the door and knocking shows a door with the handle on on the inside. When God calls one makes the decision to open and allow him in. Hence we justify ourselves by our free choice.

Uh. No we don’t. Self-justification is not taught by any educated Protestant leader, pastor or theologian I know of. We are justified by grace through faith in Christ. This faith is a gift from God made available to us by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel. As Romans 10:17 explains, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

 

[NoelFitz]

JonNC

Lutherans would say they are born-again…at Baptism.

I would claim ‘Catholics would say they are born-again… at Baptism’.
But this Baptism is very often ‘of desire’. By wishing the good one is baptised, hence all are baptised and can enter heaven.

 

[steido01]

Interesting!

I’ve wondered where a Lutheran like me would belong if I visited Northern Ireland/Ireland. I assumed I’d be classified in the same obnoxious way I am in the States: with every “Protestant” and their mother.

 

[NoelFitz]

Self-justification is not taught by any educated Protestant leader, pastor or theologian I know of.

But in a sense it seems so.
God offers us grace, we accept. The acceptance saves. One can choose, helped by grace to accept the offer. But without grace we cannot do any metritorious act, so grace is necessary for us to choose to do good, i.e. accept grace, especially if one holds people are essentially evil.

Nuanced?? But we all say the same thing Jesus saves.

 

[NoelFitz]

I’ve wondered where a Lutheran like me would belong if I visited Northern Ireland/Ireland. I assumed I’d be classified in the same obnoxious way I am in the States: with every “Protestant” and their mother.

Northern Ireland and the Republic differ.
In NI there seems more bigotry, but not all in NI are bigots.
You would find excellent hard working, God fearing folk in the North.
As in the US North and South differ.

 

[ltwin]

But in a sense it seems so.

No, not at all.

God offers us grace, we accept.

Yes, we have free will to follow Christ or not.

The acceptance saves.

No, Jesus’s shed blood saves. His holiness and righteousness credited to us justifies. If my car runs out of gas in the desert because I knowingly refused to fill up before leaving home and a stranger comes along and offers to rescue me, have I saved myself or have I been saved? I got myself in trouble and was rescued. Yes, I could have refused to be rescued, but that option doesn’t make me the hero of the story. It doesn’t make me responsible for my own rescue. I don’t get to take any of the credit.

especially if one holds people are essentially evil.

Who teaches that we are all essentially evil?

 

[joeybaggz]

Because of Christ’s obedience and death on the cross, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven, and you are no longer subject to the punishment that was once due.(10)_

This might be slightly off target for this thread, but as a cradle Catholic who has no real familiarity with Protestant theology, the above statement, (if it is what “protestant” denominations believe) is problematic for me. Do protestants believe that their future sins are forgiven, so what the heck, go out and lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, etc. etc. etc and it’s all forgiven, like it never happened?? This is the “once saved always saved” idea that is totally foreign (at least to me) to Catholic thought.
Some enlightenment???

 

[NoelFitz]

Joeybaggz
I am in the same category as you. But I think Protestants here understands
where we are coming from and show good-will.

 

[NoelFitz]

Who teaches that we are all essentially evil?
Have a look at

(https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/All-Have-Sinned)

Catholics: our passions incline us to evil, due to Adam’s sin
Protestants: we are all sinners, due to Adam’s sin.