Do men have a duty to have more than 2.1 children?

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While I understand his point, there is no duty to have a certain number children, since there is no duty to marry in the first place; on the contrary, celibacy and virginity is praised as a more excellent way of life. Even if you do marry, there is no duty to have a certain number of children, only to accept children as God gives them. Now, that said, the primary purpose of marriage, which all other purposes are subordinate to, is the begetting and educating of children, so with this in mind, you would hope that devout Catholic couples would be open to having large families.

Another point I think is worth mentioning, it seems to be unfortunately common that many Catholic men who want children (a good thing) seem to objectivitize women as baby-makers, which is wrong.

So, while I don’t dispute the problem of lack of procreation, I would be careful saying anything about there being a duty on anyone’s part to have children.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas
 
As individuals, we have no* obligation* to marry and have children. We do have an obligation as Christians to resist the anti-child mentality so prevalent in secular society today. Children are a blessing and a gift from God.
 
Having children is not a duty, or for that matter a choice, but rather a gift from God.

ICXC NIKA
 
Having children is not a duty,…
Not sure because there is a general commandment from God to be fruitful and multiply. In any event, in our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with seven children and one more on the way. I heard that there is a similar situation in Europe and other places in the world. If Roman Catholics insist on restricting the number of children in their family to two or three, and if Muslims continue to have large families with seven or eight children per family, then what will be the result?
 
“If all men have 2 or less children, simple mathematics reveal that the human race will cease to exist. We are now seeing the development of “wedge families:
4 grandparents > 2 parents > 1 baby.”

Is having more babies a matter of social justice?

maccabeesociety.com/do-men-have-a-duty-to-have-more-than-2-1-children/
Both the number of children a couple has and when they have them impacts population growth. If people on average had children in their early 20s there is a different change in population than if the average were 38. Having children earlier could be a method increasing population.

Not that there is an obligation to have children.
 
While I understand his point, there is no duty to have a certain number children, since there is no duty to marry in the first place; on the contrary, celibacy and virginity is praised as a more excellent way of life. Even if you do marry, there is no duty to have a certain number of children, only to accept children as God gives them. Now, that said, the primary purpose of marriage, which all other purposes are subordinate to, is the begetting and educating of children, so with this in mind, you would hope that devout Catholic couples would be open to having large families.

Another point I think is worth mentioning, it seems to be unfortunately common that many Catholic men who want children (a good thing) seem to objectivitize women as baby-makers, which is wrong.

So, while I don’t dispute the problem of lack of procreation, I would be careful saying anything about there being a duty on anyone’s part to have children.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas
Yes.

My husband and I are open to a large family, and we have three so far. My husband’s father and mother were also open to having many children, but in over ten years of trying (they got married in their mid 20s) they only ever had my husband - and shortly after his birth my MIL had to have a hysterectomy.

The reality of infertility is what it is. In the case of my in-laws, it was my MIL who really struggled with infertility, but certainly we wouldn’t suggest that it would be appropriate for my FIL to go out and find another woman to have additional children with. :eek:
 
I have a good friend who is a Presbyterian minister. He said God does not have grandchildren. Even if a faithful Catholic couple has about a dozen children it is not guaranteed that all of them will be faithful Catholics down the road. Chances are they probably won’t.

Of course parents are supposed to raise children in the faith and to reject the contraceptive mindset. In the end, that is all that is asked of them. It is falsehood to think that the Church requires every couple to have a huge family or for every Christian to get married.

We are not Quiverfullers.
 
“If all men have 2 or less children, simple mathematics reveal that the human race will cease to exist. We are now seeing the development of “wedge families:
4 grandparents > 2 parents > 1 baby.”

Is having more babies a matter of social justice?

maccabeesociety.com/do-men-have-a-duty-to-have-more-than-2-1-children/
It could be in the sense that being open to life is a matter of social justice. That of course does not mean that everyone has to have 2.1 children. There is quite a bit a diversity in the optimal number of children.
 
There are people having babies who **should **not even have a cat; conversely, there are those with a deep longing for children, whom the laws of biology have denied.

Children are a matter of the will of God. Full stop.

If there is a “wrong” anywhere, it lies in failure to hear the will of God.

ICXC NIKA
 
Duty, no. It is a matter of choice. For many they want kids, also for many they do not. Personally I don’t think we need any more kids. We are not leaving them a planet that is in good condition nor with the resources to sustain them. I can see why many people my age or younger don’t want kids or if they do are willing to adopt…
 
It could be in the sense that being open to life is a matter of social justice. That of course does not mean that everyone has to have 2.1 children. There is quite a bit a diversity in the optimal number of children.
One might quibble with the OP question and point out that it doesn’t really matter how many children men have - it’s the number of children women have, that counts (currently, globally, I understand, a fertility rate of 2.33 {children per woman} being necessary to maintain population levels)…

Anyway the 2.1 (in much of the developed world; the optimum fertility rate might be has high as 3.5 in area where child mortality, for instance, is much higher), is of course an average figure: as long as as many women have more than 2.1 (or 2.33 globally) children, as have fewer, then demographically at least the human race is set for a rosy future.

Like lots of things (climate change, helping up someone who has fallen in the road, etc), it’s not really a good idea to assume that someone else will sort everything out (ie have more children than you, to balance everything out). So in one sense maybe there is a moral duty to have children, assuming it’s a moral good to ensure that the human race survives. (I assume we are all here in agreement on this point; people who believe otherwise are rather a fringe). But otherwise I can’t construe anything that suggests anyone has a duty to procreate, except, as others have already said, that we are all (Catholics especially, where the teaching is so explicit) called to be open to the creation of new life, and that to do otherwise ultimately is sinful.
Not sure because there is a general commandment from God to be fruitful and multiply. In any event, in our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with seven children and one more on the way. I heard that there is a similar situation in Europe and other places in the world. If Roman Catholics insist on restricting the number of children in their family to two or three, and if Muslims continue to have large families with seven or eight children per family, then what will be the result?
This “they are out-breeding us!” fear used to be said by many protestants of Roman Catholics! (and I dare say, by indigenous populations anywhere in the world colonised by Europeans).

The issue isn’t about any religion or denomination/sect, but about socio-economics: broadly speaking (and I apologise for generalising so much), many Muslim families living in the West, tend to be further down the socio-economic ladder (just as, for instance, were very many Catholic families who came to the United States 150 or 100 years ago). For reasons which are rather complex, it’s well known that poor families tend to have more children (or start having children earlier in life). While it’s little more then hearsay evidence, meanwhile. the rather middle class Muslim men or women I went to university with, generally came from families no “bigger” than my own rather WASPish one.

In other words, one should wait give things a generation or so before worrying about this sort of thing.
 
I usually don’t mind this, and I myself use “men” generically to refer to “people” sometimes, but in the case of the article, I find the way “men” is used a bit troubling, especially since they do use “women” once, so they are not using “men” generically. I realize that it’s a men’s website, and probably there’s nothing at all wrong with it, but it mentally feels wrong–sort of a “Go out there and get the little woman pregnant” feel.

Also, the use of “men” in the title makes it sound like a) men have children by themselves, and b) the decision of how many children to have is up to men. The latter is wrong primarily because, as others have pointed out, the number of children you may have is largely determined by God, but also because the women who bear the children should have some say in the matter–at least as much as the men, although of course less than God. 🙂 You can only have a duty to do something you have control over.

But to the actual subject of the thread, my understanding of “social justice” is that it doesn’t favor one group of people over another, so since the population of the world is increasing, I dont think it can relate to social justice that some people are having more children and some children are having less. I find the arguments in the article unconvincing. Which is strange, because on the whole I agree with his general position.

Now, if someone were to say, is it a good idea for devout couples, who are going to do their best to pass on the Truth of Christ to their children, to be open to as many children as God will allow them, well, depending on financial circumstances, certainly.

But a good idea isn’t the same as a social justice issue.

–Jen
 
Having children is not a duty, or for that matter a choice, but rather a gift from God.

ICXC NIKA
It’s true, children are a gift from God, (who did after all at the beginning tell us to be fruitful and multiply). But it is also a fact that the widespread acceptance of artificial contraception (a rejection of historic Catholic and Protestant teaching) has made it easy to reject the gift.
I have a good friend who is a Presbyterian minister. He said God does not have grandchildren. Even if a faithful Catholic couple has about a dozen children it is not guaranteed that all of them will be faithful Catholics down the road. Chances are they probably won’t.

Of course parents are supposed to raise children in the faith and to reject the contraceptive mindset. In the end, that is all that is asked of them. It is falsehood to think that the Church requires every couple to have a huge family or for every Christian to get married.

We are not Quiverfullers.
It’s true that there is no guarantee that one’s children will carry on the Faith. But at least they will carry on the species, which plummeting fertility rates seem to show as a rush toward extinction.
 
It’s true that there is no guarantee that one’s children will carry on the Faith. But at least they will carry on the species, which plummeting fertility rates seem to show as a rush toward extinction.
Misconception.

While the Western nations are facing demographic winter (or in the case of NA, demographic fall), the numbers are up in most of the rest of the world.

We may lose the West, however, if the light goes out on human sight it will not be because of a lack of birthrates.

ICXC NIKA
 
“If all men have 2 or less children, simple mathematics reveal that the human race will cease to exist. We are now seeing the development of “wedge families:
4 grandparents > 2 parents > 1 baby.”

Is having more babies a matter of social justice?

maccabeesociety.com/do-men-have-a-duty-to-have-more-than-2-1-children/
I looked up the term social justice and one definition stated " It exists when “all people share a common humanity and therefore have a right to equitable treatment, support for their human rights, and a fair allocation of community resources.” One definition of humanity is “the quality or state of being kind to other people or to animals”.

I would say based on these definitions and the fact that we do not share a common humanity the answer to the question is NO.

However, I do like and agree to 3 quotes from the article:

Large families are a form of political victory. As the world moves toward democracy, birth rates are the single most powerful demographic indicator on the charts. It’s well known that liberals, secularists, and especially atheists are the most sterile demographics on the planet. They are below 1.0 children per woman. Want to see conservative leaders? Grow them at home.
The future leaders of human society will come from the traditional family enclaves on planet earth where the home boasted of a mother and a father, along with traditional moral values, religious upbringing, and plurality of siblings.
Christian men in particular, faced with secularism and Islamic encroachment, should look to their growing families as the “Noah’s arks” of Christian Civilization. It’s not just “having babies” – it is nurturing sons and daughters who will become charitable and mighty upon the earth.

In the light of these 3 statements I can see the importance of God’s intention for marriage and for the family. I would probably say YES if the question were rephrased

Do faithful married christian couples have a duty to have more than 2.1 children in order to bring the world into a state of social justice?
 
It’s true, children are a gift from God, (who did after all at the beginning tell us to be fruitful and multiply). But it is also a fact that the widespread acceptance of artificial contraception (a rejection of historic Catholic and Protestant teaching) has made it easy to reject the gift.

It’s true that there is no guarantee that one’s children will carry on the Faith. But at least they will carry on the species, which plummeting fertility rates seem to show as a rush toward extinction.
Did you read my post to completion? I mentioned rejecting the contraceptive mentality. This is the problem behind negative population growth in the West and in parts of Asia such as Japan and Korea.
 
I looked up the term social justice and one definition stated " It exists when “all people share a common humanity and therefore have a right to equitable treatment, support for their human rights, and a fair allocation of community resources.” One definition of humanity is “the quality or state of being kind to other people or to animals”.

I would say based on these definitions and the fact that we do not share a common humanity the answer to the question is NO.

However, I do like and agree to 3 quotes from the article:

Large families are a form of political victory. As the world moves toward democracy, birth rates are the single most powerful demographic indicator on the charts. It’s well known that liberals, secularists, and especially atheists are the most sterile demographics on the planet. They are below 1.0 children per woman. Want to see conservative leaders? Grow them at home.
The future leaders of human society will come from the traditional family enclaves on planet earth where the home boasted of a mother and a father, along with traditional moral values, religious upbringing, and plurality of siblings.
Christian men in particular, faced with secularism and Islamic encroachment, should look to their growing families as the “Noah’s arks” of Christian Civilization. It’s not just “having babies” – it is nurturing sons and daughters who will become charitable and mighty upon the earth.

In the light of these 3 statements I can see the importance of God’s intention for marriage and for the family. I would probably say YES if the question were rephrased

Do faithful married christian couples have a duty to have more than 2.1 children in order to bring the world into a state of social justice?
The above sounds like Quiverfull talk to me. All Catholics who are married need to do is reject the contraceptive mindset and to welcome and raise in the faith all children God blesses them with. That is all. There is no requirement to have a dozen plus kids or in fact to get married.
 
"Most men fear a large family because of the financial burden. ‘How can I pay for all that food? How can I pay for all that college?’

Our answer is that you will have to … make financial sacrifices. If men in previous generations were willing to die in the beaches of Normandy or prowl through the jungles of Asia for the common good, we can embrace the ‘hardship’ of forgoing golf, eating out, and car payments on a new truck."

Every Christian couple within child bearing age groups that I’ve ever known has always talked, in my hearing, about depending on God to make sure their economic situation held out when they were asking God for another child.

Obviously the window of opportunity has got more difficult for ordinary people since 2007.

Christian living is always first and foremost a matter of depending - literally - on God. We probably don’t talk about that enough.
 
The above sounds like Quiverfull talk to me. All Catholics who are married need to do is reject the contraceptive mindset and to welcome and raise in the faith all children God blesses them with. That is all. There is no requirement to have a dozen plus kids or in fact to get married.
Not familiar with the term Quiverfull but it seems to mean what you are saying here “to welcome and raise in the faith all children God blesses them with”.

So I guess thanks. Agree there is no requirement just need to be open to kids.
 
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