Do modern Protestants know what they are protesting?

[peace2u2]

Among minor things, Lutherans are uncomfortable with the practice of donating money to have a Mass,

Its called an offering. It is collected in baskets as part of our worship service when our members faithfully give a portion of their income (a tithe) to support the ongoing ministries of the Church both locally and to support the missions thru out the world.

And its Biblical as you are probably already aware if you study Scripture. See Genesis 14:20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

and Hebrews 7:5-9 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but he whose genealogy is not derived from them …

**Doesn’t the Lutheran church still include this in their praise/worship service? **

 

[Tommy999]

Hi peace2u2,
If you are referring to whether tithing is practiced or not, here is a previous CAF thread that I started a few months ago that you might find interesting. In short, I asked whether tithing was still practiced in Catholic parishes and the majority of Catholics who responded said it was an Old Testament requirement and that Christians are no longer obligated to do it, although there were still some that do.

As far as my faith tradition (AOG) is concerned, tithing is encouraged but it is not a requirement. It is not considered a sin if you don’t tithe, although the clergy sometimes have tithing church members share how God has blessed them after they began tithing.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=898814

 

[ltwin]

What I don’t understand, and my question is if the issue was corruption why change the dogma?

There was corruption, and there did need to be structural reforms to the Church. In the decades prior to the Reformation, many within Europe were clamoring for less centralization and more local control of churches because they were tired of all their money being sucked up by the imperial capital (aka Rome ). Also, many people wanted a Church Council to be called and there were some who wanted a Church Council to actually run the church in place of the Pope. There were many religious orders that were founded specifically to bring a renewed sense of piety to the people because they thought the established agencies of the church were doing such a bad job.

However, the Protestant Reformation was not just about ridding the church of corruption and reforming its structure. The Reformation was instigated by deeply theological concerns.

If the issue was loss of authority, whether through corruption or some other reason, how do they explain Matthew 16:18. Would that not mean the church fell due to evil (“the gates of hell”)? If it did not fall then the teachings of the church were still sound, so why did Martin Luther (with no authority if his own) decide it truthful and appropriate to change teaching? If it did fall, how could that be, as it runs contrary to Jesus’s own words, which is “truth”?

I think Luther would say that his authority came from Holy Scripture and from his office as an ordained priest in the Church of God. He was bound by conscience to speak out about what he believed were distortions of the Word of God.

I don’t think Luther ever stated that the (Roman) Catholic Church had become a false church. He just believed some false doctrine had been allowed to fester and that it needed to be acknowledged and removed so the church could return to preaching an undiluted Gospel. It was only when it became clear that the Catholic authorities were not going to change that Luther broke with them. Of course, he never considered himself breaking from the Catholic Church, only from the ecclesiastical tyranny of the bishop of Rome.

Luther was profoundly appreciative of medieval piety and theologians. He certainly did not think the entire Catholic heritage was corrupt and without authority. He only thought some of it was.

 

[pilgrim_NL]

c

Baloney…there is only one Truth. We as Catholics are called to proclaim the Truth of Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded, the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ and His Church are One and the Same. Many protestants profess to love Jesus but they do not follow Him. They separate Jesus from His Church. That is the hard Truth. This is a Catholic forum and we are called to give a defense of the One True Church.

Same goes for many catholics, who think church attendence will save them on the day of judgement. What is your point?

 

[pilgrim_NL]

I would like an answer to this as well. The doctrines of grace can be found in their fullness in the seven sacraments, the very channels of grace established by Christ himself.

Can you show me where Christ established seven sacraments Himself? I can only think of two with certainty that He Himself instituted. I would love to learn.

 

[pilgrim_NL]

Its called an offering. It is collected in baskets as part of our worship service when our members faithfully give a portion of their income (a tithe) to support the ongoing ministries of the Church both locally and to support the missions thru out the world.

And its Biblical as you are probably already aware if you study Scripture. See Genesis 14:20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

and Hebrews 7:5-9 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but he whose genealogy is not derived from them …

**Doesn’t the Lutheran church still include this in their praise/worship service? **

What is your understanding of why the Levites received tithes and how do you relate this to the mass?

Greetings.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Its called an offering. It is collected in baskets as part of our worship service when our members faithfully give a portion of their income (a tithe) to support the ongoing ministries of the Church both locally and to support the missions thru out the world.

Ben was not referring to collecting offerings. He was referring to the buying and selling of Masses themselves. i.e., Prince X pays the Church Y in order to have priest N say a private Mass.

 

[JonNC]

Can you show me where Christ established seven sacraments Himself? I can only think of two with certainty that He Himself instituted. I would love to learn.

Confession/Holy Absolution

** 19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,c Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”**

Jon

 

[pablope]

Confession/Holy Absolution

** 19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,c Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”**

Jon

Well…as i recall reading from a link provided by your fellow Lutheran…Luther says Confession is not a sacrament…

So who is to be believed?

 

[pablope]

Can you show me where Christ established seven sacraments Himself? I can only think of two with certainty that He Himself instituted. I would love to learn.

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt1.html

 

[JonNC]

Well…as i recall reading from a link provided by your fellow Lutheran…Luther says Confession is not a sacrament…

So who is to be believed?

Luther says it is an extension of Baptism, sacramental. The Apology says that Absolution is a sacrament. Either way, it is sacramental, instituted by Christ with the promise of grace. My Lutheran friend, I suspect, would not disagree.

Jon

 

[Per_Crucem]

Well…as i recall reading from a link provided by your fellow Lutheran…Luther says Confession is not a sacrament…

So who is to be believed?

Our confessions, which define it as such. We do not raise Luther’s opinion to doctrine.

 

[Mystophilus]

But yet the Anglicans allow women to be ordained priests and same-sex marriage in their Church.

That is true, but our seeking closer ties with the Catholic Church is about working with you, not about becoming you.

 

[pablope]

Luther says it is an extension of Baptism, sacramental. The Apology says that Absolution is a sacrament. Either way, it is sacramental, instituted by Christ with the promise of grace. My Lutheran friend, I suspect, would not disagree.

Jon

Well…then, if you say it is a “sacramental”…it is not a sacrament. Sacramentals are not sacraments.

Sacramentals are… sacramentals are sacred signs that resemble the sacraments. Sacramentals include actions such as the Sign of the Cross, fasting, genuflections and novenas and objects such as medals, rosaries, statues and holy water.

From what I have observed, with the number of times Lutherans here have thrown Luther under the bus…one would get the impression that he had nothing good to say…

Well…as for your Lutheran friend…he seems to contradicts himself…having contradictory positions…maybe depending on the what is convenient at the time.

In post 80 on this thread…he defends the confessions:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=906882&page=6

*Our confessions dogmatically define two. Therefore, everyone who abides by the Augsburg Confession and the Small Catechism are required to accept Baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments. *

In post 72 of this thread…he says the following…“Our confessions, which define it as such.”

So in one thread…he say the confessions define only two, baptism and eucharist. In here…he says it is defined as a sacrament…so which is which really?

 

[pilgrim_NL]

Confession/Holy Absolution

** 19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,c Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”**

Jon

How do you derive from that, seven sacraments, instituted by Christ Himself. To clarify, when I say Christ Himself, I mean, in Person.

 

[pilgrim_NL]

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt1.html

Thanks I will read it

 

[oneofmany]

Do modern Protestants know what they are protesting?

Usually the last church they went to and trying to find one that is more in line with their thinking.

 

[pilgrim_NL]

Do modern Protestants know what they are protesting?

Usually the last church they went to and trying to find one that is more in line with their thinking.

Point taken. To be honest, I don’t think they know . The term “protestant” as I think you would agree with has everything to do with a medieval conflict. The average protestant christian doesn’t know much about the differences between Roman Catholicism and let’s say the reformed tradition, other then what the confessions say. So I think you are right on that. Most of my protestant friends are far more aware of the differences with cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses etc. I can’t even think of one of my friends who would refer to Roman Catholics as non Christians, as many during the reformation would have asserted. Nevertheless, you are assuming that protestants are “church hoppers”, which I think is a kind of overstated, since there are a lot of protestants that are born in a certain tradition, get married there and stay there untill they die. Offcourse there are a lot of people hopping from church to church finding whatever suits their own beliefs. Some even become Roman Catholic, since they think that now suits their beliefs best. Offcourse then you would say, they have found the true church. So what you have got is this: in protestantism there is much shifting in churches (I would say over minor differences) and in roman catholicism there is little shifting but (my opinion due to experience) a lot of people not subscribing to a lot of official church teachings. Let’s take for example morals. I find it so strange that most dutch catholic families I know, only have two children! Thats about the average family size in Holland. Two or three children. I would think that in catholic holland you would expect larger families, but over the overall, they are not larger. I can’t figure this out due to the stance on birth control. Luckily for me, a priest figured it out. Most catholics in Dutch parishes practise various forms of birth control, no matter what the church teaches. So I have a hard time figuring out what is worse. Church hopping protestants, or catholics not subscribing to catholic teachings.

 

[randomusername]

The offerings in masses are completely optional anyway. You might feel under pressure to pay but once or twice I’ve arrived at Mass realising to my horror that I forgot to bring any money. When it came to the offering the people collecting(I was standing at the back because the church was full) were really good in that they didn’t stop so no one really noticed.

99% of the time I do put in money, of course.

 

[Faithdancer]

c

“They separate Jesus from His Church.”

A curious statement. By “His Church” do you mean the Roman Catholic church?