Do modern Protestants know what they are protesting?

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JonNC said:
Which part of the Church, Steve?

Jon
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The Apostles who first received the authority and guidance, and their successors; the bishops in union with Peter, upon whom the Church was founded; the magisterium.
 
clem456 said:
Bottom line is** the Church does not have to specifically declare something infallible for it to be that**. The source of infallibility is the person of Christ working through his body the Church, not a document on paper.
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I have no argument against this.

However, it’s still not our place to determine what is and isn’t infallible.
 
SteveVH said:
I just told you. Jesus. He told us this before the NT was even written and the Church chose texts that reflected what it had been told “outside of Scripture”. It is called “Sacred Tradition”.
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Okay, so instead of focusing on Scripture, may I ask what infallible authority tells you that Sacred Tradition is what you claim it to be? You say Jesus, but apart from the Church telling you “Jesus taught this,” you have no other source.

You see, ISTM that, ultimately, no matter how you cut it, the infallibility argument is hopelessly circular. In the end, you’re going to be left with “the church is infallible because the church says so.” You can say it’s because Jesus says so, but you also say you can’t know what Jesus actually said unless the church infallibly tells you.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Okay, so instead of focusing on Scripture, may I ask what infallible authority tells you that Sacred Tradition is what you claim it to be? You say Jesus, but apart from the Church telling you “Jesus taught this,” you have no other source.
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Correct. Nor do you. What other source would you suggest than those who walked, ate, lived and were taught by Jesus himself? What we received from Apostles is what has been preserved, guarded and protected throughout the centuries. What other source would there be?

But let me ask you. Why do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God? What source do you use that gives you confidence that this is the case?
 
SteveVH said:
**The Apostles who first received the authority and guidance, **and their successors; the bishops in union with Peter, upon whom the Church was founded; the magisterium.
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As not all bishops united with Peter, even if not united with the Bishop of Rome?

Jon
 
Per_Crucem said:
Okay, so instead of focusing on Scripture, may I ask what infallible authority tells you that Sacred Tradition is what you claim it to be? You say Jesus, but apart from the Church telling you “Jesus taught this,” you have no other source.

You see, ISTM that, ultimately, no matter how you cut it, the infallibility argument is hopelessly circular. In the end, you’re going to be left with “the church is infallible because the church says so.” You can say it’s because Jesus says so, but you also say you can’t know what Jesus actually said unless the church infallibly tells you.
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That is only if you believe, that when the Church speaks…it is not guided by the Holy Spirit in such matters, and therefor, it is just men speaking and not Christ.

And when the Church speaks, do you believe it is Christ speaking, through the Church, with the Church spreading the message of the gospel?
 
pablope said:
That is only if you believe, that when the Church speaks…it is not guided by the Holy Spirit in such matters, and therefor, it is just men speaking and not Christ.

And when the Church speaks, do you believe it is Christ speaking, through the Church, with the Church spreading the message of the gospel?
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Not speaking for Per, but I absolutely believe that, by word and sacrament, Christ speaks through His Church. I also believe that, despite the human sin that divides His Church, He continues to speak through His Church - all of it.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Odd question. Of course not, but for a thousand years now the patriarchates of the church have been divided. So, which part of the Church?

Jon
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The one prayed by Christ whose faith shall not fail and shall strengthen his brethen.

St. Optatus answers the question:calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/st-optatus-on-schism-and-the-bishop-of-rome/

he turns in Book Two to the question: “Which is the One True Catholic Church and Where is it to be Found?” he writes:

For it was not Caecilian who went forth from Majorinus, your father’s father,12 but it was Majorinus who deserted Caecilian; nor was it Caecilian who separated himself from the Chair of Peter, or from the Chair of Cyprian — but Majorinus, on whose Chair you sit — a Chair which had no existence before Majorinus himself.13

St. Optatus writes to Parmenian:

But you allege that you too have some sort of a party in the City of Rome. It is a branch of your error growing out of a lie, not from the root of truth. In a word, were Macrobius to be asked where he sits in the City, will he be able to say on Peter’s Cathedra? I doubt whether he has even set eyes upon it, and schismatic that he is, he has not drawn nigh to Peter’s Shrine…. Behold, in Rome are the Shrines of the two Apostles . Will you tell me whether he * has been able to approach them, or has offered Sacrifice in those places, where as is certain are these Shrines of the Saints.21*
 
JonNC said:
Not speaking for Per, but I absolutely believe that, by word and sacrament, Christ speaks through His Church. I also believe that, despite the human sin that divides His Church, He continues to speak through His Church - all of it.

Jon
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Catholics would agree that he speaks through the Church that is united to the successor of the man (Peter, who was real and living just like Christ) that he breathed on. If a church is not united to Peter’s successor then it cannot have the fullness of the truth because it is not united to Christ. ( I know it seems circular)
 
JonNC said:
Not speaking for Per, but I absolutely believe that, by word and sacrament, Christ speaks through His Church. I also believe that, despite the human sin that divides His Church, He continues to speak through His Church - all of it.

Jon
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Thanks, Jon.

Let me take it one step further…do you believe the Church is free from error when the Church speaks (through Christ)?
 
pablope said:
The one prayed by Christ whose faith shall not fail and shall strengthen his brethen.

St. Optatus answers the question:calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/st-optatus-on-schism-and-the-bishop-of-rome/

he turns in Book Two to the question: “Which is the One True Catholic Church and Where is it to be Found?” he writes:

For it was not Caecilian who went forth from Majorinus, your father’s father,12 but it was Majorinus who deserted Caecilian; nor was it Caecilian who separated himself from the Chair of Peter, or from the Chair of Cyprian — but Majorinus, on whose Chair you sit — a Chair which had no existence before Majorinus himself.13

St. Optatus writes to Parmenian:

But you allege that you too have some sort of a party in the City of Rome. It is a branch of your error growing out of a lie, not from the root of truth. In a word, were Macrobius to be asked where he sits in the City, will he be able to say on Peter’s Cathedra? I doubt whether he has even set eyes upon it, and schismatic that he is, he has not drawn nigh to Peter’s Shrine…. Behold, in Rome are the Shrines of the two Apostles . Will you tell me whether he * has been able to approach them, or has offered Sacrifice in those places, where as is certain are these Shrines of the Saints.21*

To paraphrase my good Catholics siblings here, the Fathers were not infallible. Is it your claim that St. Optatus was?
Let’s be clear that a 4th century Father would have no knowledge of the claims of the Bishop of Rome regarding his jurisdiction.

Jon
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pablope said:
Thanks, Jon.

Let me take it one step further…do you believe the Church is free from error when the Church speaks (through Christ)?
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The Church is. The humans who might do such speaking are not. IOW, in so many ways and at so many times, the pope, when speaking for the Church speaks truth… but not always. I believe the same about the leaders of the Orthodox Church in America, an autocephalous Orthodox Church. And the same about the LCMS, a synod in the Lutheran tradition of the OHCAC. And others.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
To paraphrase my good Catholics siblings here, the Fathers were not infallible. Is it your claim that St. Optatus was?
Let’s be clear that a 4th century Father would have no knowledge of the claims of the Bishop of Rome regarding his jurisdiction.

Jon
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892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
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vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p4.htm
 
JonNC said:
As not all bishops united with Peter, even if not united with the Bishop of Rome?

Jon
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Hi Jon: I wonder who or what Bishops were not united with Peter if as you said "As not all Bishops united with Peter, even if not united with the Bishop of Rome? Or am not understanding just what you are actually referring to?
 
JonNC said:
Thanks. It is, of course, a Catholic document, and I’m not sure how it applies to my repeating the statement that the Fathers were not infallible.

Jon
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Not in an of themselves. But through the Church, they have made statements that could be categorized as infallible.
 
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