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beng
Guest
Those people maybe joined with the Church in the last nanosecond of their life.
There’s NO WAY a man can enter into Heavenly glory without being joined with Christ’s body.
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There’s NO WAY a man can enter into Heavenly glory without being joined with Christ’s body.
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pnewton
Guest
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation” (Lumen Genium 16).
"‘Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men’ [CCC 847–848].
I stole these quotes from a Mark Shea article. Here’s the full thing
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp
"‘Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men’ [CCC 847–848].
I stole these quotes from a Mark Shea article. Here’s the full thing
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp
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beng
Guest
Athanasian Creed circa A.D. 420:
(D39):“Whoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith, which unless each one preserves whole and inviolate, without doubt he will perish everlastingly. …] This is the Catholic faith, which unless each one believes faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
Saint Augustine:
“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermon to the People of Caesaria)
(D39):“Whoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith, which unless each one preserves whole and inviolate, without doubt he will perish everlastingly. …] This is the Catholic faith, which unless each one believes faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
Saint Augustine:
“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermon to the People of Caesaria)
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Deacon2006,
Today many people believe in a false “jesus” who would not send anyone to hell. People have created a false “jesus” today as people have created false gods in the past.
It is not Moses, but Jesus who gave us the concept of eternal punishment, damnation and fires of Gehenna.
Please visit WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All This site quotes some forty times where Jesus is painting a picture of those who will be cast into hell.
I think that you should focus on these damnation warnings from Jesus with your friend first. This will tell you if he beleives in the messages of Jesus or whether he has created a false “jesus” in his heart as his god. It has been my experience that those who do not want you to echo Jesus teaching in Mathew 7:14 on damnation, have cast out all of Jesus warnings of eternal damnation.
NAB MAT 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (ISA 58)NAB REV 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
Today many people believe in a false “jesus” who would not send anyone to hell. People have created a false “jesus” today as people have created false gods in the past.
It is not Moses, but Jesus who gave us the concept of eternal punishment, damnation and fires of Gehenna.
Please visit WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All This site quotes some forty times where Jesus is painting a picture of those who will be cast into hell.
I think that you should focus on these damnation warnings from Jesus with your friend first. This will tell you if he beleives in the messages of Jesus or whether he has created a false “jesus” in his heart as his god. It has been my experience that those who do not want you to echo Jesus teaching in Mathew 7:14 on damnation, have cast out all of Jesus warnings of eternal damnation.
NAB MAT 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (ISA 58)NAB REV 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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pnewton
Guest
It sure is great to have the Catechism to help sort out all these issues. Outside the Church there is no Salvation. Agreed. But how is this to be interpreted?
Fr. Feeney thought he had it right and was excommunicated for a while. Obviously one can not knowingly reject the Church. Salvationmust come through the Church, as it somes through Jesus.
Anytime one sees an absolte statement, it is necessary to know the context and the universe in which the absolute applies. We do not hold Mary as sinful because “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” No doubt there were times in history in specific areas where actual communion with the local Catholic Church was necessary for salvation.
Maybe God knows in His own way who would have embraced the Catholic faith, if they had know clearly that it was His will and this counts as a sort of baptism of desire. Since the Church has not spoken on this, we do not know.
Fr. Feeney thought he had it right and was excommunicated for a while. Obviously one can not knowingly reject the Church. Salvationmust come through the Church, as it somes through Jesus.
Anytime one sees an absolte statement, it is necessary to know the context and the universe in which the absolute applies. We do not hold Mary as sinful because “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” No doubt there were times in history in specific areas where actual communion with the local Catholic Church was necessary for salvation.
Maybe God knows in His own way who would have embraced the Catholic faith, if they had know clearly that it was His will and this counts as a sort of baptism of desire. Since the Church has not spoken on this, we do not know.
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jeffreedy789
Guest
‘If you’re thinking that outside the Church they can find the fullness of Jesus and saved because of it than you’re violating the eternal dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.’
beng, and others here, seem to be ignoring the teaching of the church on the subject. yes, the church has said, in the documents you quoted (and more) that there is no salvation outside the church.
it’s also said that we trust to the grace of God those who we don’t KNOW how they might be saved. protestants, muslims, atheists, whomever. they are all included in the concentric circles of faith, by which God can and might (and, i pray, WILL) save them.
the church has not stated without reservation that anyone who is not catholic will not be saved. neither should we.
i hope and pray, along with st gregory of nyssa, for the salvation of all. that everyone might be found in the lamb’s book of life. God desires everyone to be saved. may His will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
beng, and others here, seem to be ignoring the teaching of the church on the subject. yes, the church has said, in the documents you quoted (and more) that there is no salvation outside the church.
it’s also said that we trust to the grace of God those who we don’t KNOW how they might be saved. protestants, muslims, atheists, whomever. they are all included in the concentric circles of faith, by which God can and might (and, i pray, WILL) save them.
the church has not stated without reservation that anyone who is not catholic will not be saved. neither should we.
i hope and pray, along with st gregory of nyssa, for the salvation of all. that everyone might be found in the lamb’s book of life. God desires everyone to be saved. may His will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
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Mijoy2
Guest
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rayne89
Guest
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.God is the God of justice. To condem a man to hell because he has never known the truth of Christ is not justice, That would be condeming an innocent man. The church does not teach what your professing here.
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Mijoy2
Guest
I’ve heard this before “God has given men sufficient grace to receive this offer”. Of this I have to ask; who would ever reject this offer assuming they have the Catholic understanding of hell"? Wouldn’t the answer be, very few if any?
The picture painted here is the choice:
Live eternally in paradise or burn in hell? Quick you must choose. I like the idea that we may have this choice that last nano-second of life. But I can’t see anyuone rejecting it. Thus, if accepted, we are back to most are in Heaven, aren’t we?.
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beng
Guest
Heh?
This is still the case until now and will be so forever.
Council of Florence
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed [his] blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)
Bapstism of desire is not simply desire to be baptised. That is very banal.
Newadvent:
The council does not mean by votum a simple desire of receiving baptism or even a resolution to do so. It means by votum an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism,
Some other source
The word “Votum” (as used by the Council of Trent) is not some superficial wish. That is not the meaning of the word at all. In fact, we must keep in mind that the very nature of faith means that it cannot be totally implicit as it is necessary to know and believe something divinely revealed with a supernatural faith. Laboring under invincible ignorance does not prevent a person from being converted to God by contrition or by an act of perfect Charity. In this act of contrition or perfect act of charity must be contained either an explicit or implicit desire to receive baptism by water according as the notion of baptism is or is not present to the mind of the Person who has turned his heart and mind to God
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beng
Guest
jeffreedy789 said:
I’m being ignorant?
Find me where I said that the Moselm today etc are going to hell.
I do not know what lies ahead of them.
But I do know one thing. If they are not joined with the body of Christ at the end of their life, they will go to Hell.
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beng
Guest
rayne89 said:
NO ONE can enter Heaven without joinned with the body of Christ NO ONE. NONE!
Those who through no fault on their own do not know Christ, lead a good life and do not commit any mortal sin upon death COULD POSSIBLY be join with the Church before his death. If they are not then it’s just SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE.
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beng
Guest
Do you need to actually commit murder to know that murder is bad? Do you need to jump off 100 stories building to know that it would kill you?
ALL human have been given by God SUFFICIENT GRACE to conversion (DE FIDE).
You are begging the question
I would say that decision on the last nano second of life is very limited.
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pnewton
Guest
By communion with the local Church, I meant being on the Church roll, attending Mass there, buying cakes to support CYO.
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Minerva
Guest
one thing to keep in mind about the numbers going to Hell and Heaven is that the vast majority of people who die each day do so before birth. The number of abortions, miscarriages, and cases where the zygote just doesn’t implant is phenomenally huge. We are all very lucky to be here, lucky we survived pregnancy and lucky to be conceived by a mother who didn’t kill us. So my point is, that if we believe the soul is present when life is present (conception) then the vast majority of souls coming to God everyday will be those of the unborn. That’s going to tip the numbers, so to speak, most likely in favor of Heaven IMO.
NOw if we’re talking about people who die in adulthood, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to fear most go to Hell, just based on how most people live their lives in our culture at least. Plus we have Jesus’ own words that the gate is narrow and few find it.
Regarding funerals, it’s understandable that the priest and others would say the deceased is in heaven, but utterly inappropriate, because the deceased needs our prayers and this needs to be stressed. Nobody had better say I’m in heaven at my funeral - I’d want them praying their butts off for my poor soul instead! There are exceptions of course - I was once at the funeral of an 8 year old boy who was severly mentally handicapped, and the priest flat out said he was in Heaven. I didn’t find that inappropriate, because where else could such an innocent, as well as baptized, soul end up?
NOw if we’re talking about people who die in adulthood, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to fear most go to Hell, just based on how most people live their lives in our culture at least. Plus we have Jesus’ own words that the gate is narrow and few find it.
Regarding funerals, it’s understandable that the priest and others would say the deceased is in heaven, but utterly inappropriate, because the deceased needs our prayers and this needs to be stressed. Nobody had better say I’m in heaven at my funeral - I’d want them praying their butts off for my poor soul instead! There are exceptions of course - I was once at the funeral of an 8 year old boy who was severly mentally handicapped, and the priest flat out said he was in Heaven. I didn’t find that inappropriate, because where else could such an innocent, as well as baptized, soul end up?
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Mijoy2
Guest
This brings up two points of concern. First, why did God design a plan of which most of His creation is damned to hell? He, knew the outcome before it was created. He could have decided to pass. I realize this question is worded in a way that sounds basic and elementary. However this concept need not be made complicated. How can anyone enjoy Heaven, knowing a loved one is tormented in Hell for all eternity? This mystery, as it stands simply doesn’t add up. To put it in perspective I believe we can think of it this way. If a loved one was at home in great pain and misery, how could we enjoy anything about our lives?
I should have said the Priest insinuates the deceased is not in Hell. I didnt mean to imply the Priest says the deceased is in fact in Heaven. People here tookt his error of mine and ran with it sidestepping or masking the thought I was trying to get across.
I find this topic keeps getting raised. I suspect the lucky few who are devout followers of the Faith and are fortunate enough to have all thier cherished loved ones also devout Catholics may be able to find it easier to state that “most will go to Hell”. Possibly because they can’t attach a face of a person they love more then life itself to this statement. With others it burns deep inside. “Paradise”, can’t exist with the knowledge of loved one who are not there. Its a paradox, it’s illogical. There has to be more to this mystery then meets the eye.
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beng
Guest
The Church has not say anything definitive about the fate of the unborn. We can not say 100% postively that they are in Heaven.
I heard that currently JP2 is pushing theologians to come up with the answer. I think this is a very wise move. Let’s hope they come up with even a “sententia ad fidem pertinem, ie: theologice certa” a doctrine which the Chruch hasn’t pronounce but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation.
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beng
Guest
God does not exist in a time line. Everything is NOW for God.
In the final judgment we will know why they deserve hell. We will also see how infinitely just God is.
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pnewton
Guest
I have heard it said that one of the reason for the general judgement is so we will all know the perfection of the mercy and the justice of God. In this, our will is to be His and we will not grieve once we understand. (See, I can also agree with you.)
I am still hopeful for a merciful God to allow many to go to heaven. The angels batted .667. (that’s 2/3, for the baseball challegened). If I though we would be a around to collect, we could get a pot going.
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