Do Mormons beleive there were/are gods before God?

[taylorf]

Caught ya! It was Martin Harris. You can read about him in the Doctrine and Covenants.

I’m pretty sure the Doctrine and Covenants doesn’t include any of the following accounts. Clearly this guy can be trusted.

Ronald W. Walker, “Martin Harris: Mormonism’s Early Convert,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 34-35. “Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle’s sputtering as a sign that the devil desired him to stop. Another time he excitedly awoke from his sleep believing that a creature as large as a dog had been upon his chest, though a nearby associate could find nothing to confirm his fears. Several hostile and perhaps unreliable accounts told of visionary experiences with Satan and Christ, Harris once reporting that Christ had been poised on a roof beam.”

John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271: “No matter where he went, he saw visions and supernatural appearances all around him. He told a gentleman in Palmyra, after one of his excursions to Pennsylvania, while the translation of the Book of Mormon was going on, that on the way he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man talks with another.” According to two Ohio newspapers, shortly after Harris arrived in Kirtland he began claiming to have “seen Jesus Christ and that he is the handsomest man he ever did see. He has also seen the Devil, whom he described as a very sleek haired fellow with four feet, and a head like that of a Jack-***.” Vogel,EMD 2: 271, note 32.

The Reverend John A. Clark, who knew Harris, said Martin “had always been a firm believer in dreams, and visions and supernatural appearances, such as apparitions and ghosts, and therefore was a fit subject for such men as Smith and his colleagues to operate on.”Lorenzo Saunders said Harris was a “great man for seeing spooks.”Presbyterian minister Jesse Townsend of Palmyra called Harris a “visionary fanatic.”

 

[rmcmullan]

To him who has ears to hear, let them hear D &C 10.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the subject of the original posts and leave personal attacks at the door.

 

[Porknpie]

God created everything that was created. The eternal things did not need to be created.

Rmcmullan -

Do you believe that if there existed a telescope, of infinite power and magnification and that if we could point it toward the heavens accurately, through it we could see God the Father? Could we also see Jesus Christ?

PnP

 

[rmcmullan]

Rmcmullan -

Do you believe that if there existed a telescope, of infinite power and magnification and that if we could point it toward the heavens accurately, through it we could see God the Father? Could we also see Jesus Christ?

PnP

I don’t believe in any such telescope.

 

[rmcmullan]

Rmcmullan -

Do you believe that if there existed a telescope, of infinite power and magnification and that if we could point it toward the heavens accurately, through it we could see God the Father? Could we also see Jesus Christ?

PnP

Ha, that was just me being a smart alec. Don’t you know the Mormon teaching that both the Father and Son have a body as tangible as man’s? It’s in the D&C. I thought most Catholic Forums guys knew that. Is that what you’re asking?

 

[Porknpie]

Ha, that was just me being a smart alec. Don’t you know the Mormon teaching that both the Father and Son have a body as tangible as man’s? It’s in the D&C. I thought most Catholic Forums guys knew that. Is that what you’re asking?

Yes and do you believe that they exist in this universe so that if we had such a telescope, we could zoom in on them and their planet and since it was so powerful, we could zoom in on them on their planet?

I am trying to understand LDS theology here.

 

[rmcmullan]

I don’t know if they have a “planet.” I sort of thought they were like the Apostles, traveling throughout their creations and ministering to them. That’s probably just my own personal idea though. But they are visible because they have bodies. I don’t know why you are asking such an odd question. WHy don’t you just assume the trap has been laid and get to your point.

 

[Porknpie]

No trap. That would be uncharitable. A Catholic University Theology professor told me that Mormons believed that God the Father existed on a planet in our universe. I hadn’t heard that before. He asked the same question of a Mormon friend that he knew and the answer was yes, one could see God if one had a telescope powerful enough to do so. So it is certainly not an odd question as it seems to be the LDS belief. Or is it??

The LDS theology above on the nature of God conflicts (completely) with the view of Catholics and other Christian faiths. God is a all Spirit and is beyond time and space, three persons in one being. That is why Jesus was able to predict the fall of the Jewish Temple, his own crucifixion, that Thomas would deny him and why God, speaking through human authors in the OT, foretold of the coming of the Messiah. God see’s everything, all time at once.

My followup question then, how does LDS theology account for Jesus knowing these event ahead of time?

And per your comments above, how do you believe God travels the universe if he has a bodily form?

PnP

 

[twopekinguys]

No trap. That would be uncharitable. A Catholic University Theology professor told me that Mormons believed that God the Father existed on a planet in our universe. I hadn’t heard that before. He asked the same question of a Mormon friend that he knew and the answer was yes, one could see God if one had a telescope powerful enough to do so. So it is certainly not an odd question as it seems to be the LDS belief. Or is it??

The LDS theology above on the nature of God conflicts (completely) with the view of Catholics and other Christian faiths. God is a all Spirit and is beyond time and space, three persons in one being. That is why Jesus was able to predict the fall of the Jewish Temple, his own crucifixion, that Thomas would deny him and why God, speaking through human authors in the OT, foretold of the coming of the Messiah. God see’s everything, all time at once.

My followup question then, how does LDS theology account for Jesus knowing these event ahead of time?

And per your comments above, how do you believe God travels the universe if he has a bodily form?

PnP

Doesn’t the mormon god live on the planet closest to the star Kolob?

Where’s the Hubble space telescope pointed?

 

[iepuras]

I don’t know if they have a “planet.” I sort of thought they were like the Apostles, traveling throughout their creations and ministering to them. That’s probably just my own personal idea though. But they are visible because they have bodies. I don’t know why you are asking such an odd question. WHy don’t you just assume the trap has been laid and get to your point.

Maybe the question is odd because the truth of Mormon theology is odd.

PnP, the Catholic University theology professor you spoke to is correct on Mormon theology. The the one of God is on an unnamed planet closet to the star called Kolob. Please see Abraham 3:9 in the Pearl of Great Price for the reference from Mormon scripture.

Since Heavenly Father does have a body of flesh and bone, he should be visible if we point your theoretical telescope at him. There must be some Mormons at NASA who could point the Hubble telescope towards Kolob to check.

 

[taylorf]

Doesn’t the mormon god live on the planet closest to the star Kolob?

Indeed he does. And don’t forget the people living on the moon. The ones that are about 6ft tall, dress like Quakers, and live to 1,000 years old. I’m sure they buried their own record of Jesus under some moon rocks.

 

[rmcmullan]

No trap. That would be uncharitable. A Catholic University Theology professor told me that Mormons believed that God the Father existed on a planet in our universe. I hadn’t heard that before. He asked the same question of a Mormon friend that he knew and the answer was yes, one could see God if one had a telescope powerful enough to do so. So it is certainly not an odd question as it seems to be the LDS belief. Or is it??

The LDS theology above on the nature of God conflicts (completely) with the view of Catholics and other Christian faiths. God is a all Spirit and is beyond time and space, three persons in one being. That is why Jesus was able to predict the fall of the Jewish Temple, his own crucifixion, that Thomas would deny him and why God, speaking through human authors in the OT, foretold of the coming of the Messiah. God see’s everything, all time at once.

My followup question then, how does LDS theology account for Jesus knowing these event ahead of time?

And per your comments above, how do you believe God travels the universe if he has a bodily form?

PnP

I am wondering why you ask a question you know the answer to beforehand. I am also wondering how knowing future events is precluded by all man having an eternal spirit. Finally, I am wondering why the method of God traveling the universe depends on whether He has a physical or spirit body and why you would think I possibly know that.

 

[rmcmullan]

Doesn’t the mormon god live on the planet closest to the star Kolob?

Where’s the Hubble space telescope pointed?

I know you too enjoy being a smart alec but the observations the Hubble Space Telescope make are scheduled by the Space Science Institute on the John Hopkins University campus in Baltimore. And I know there’s at least one Mormon that works at NASA on the Hubble.

 

[Porknpie]

I am wondering why you ask a question you know the answer to beforehand.

I simply don’t know the answer. That is why I asked. I only had a sample size of of one.

I am also wondering how knowing future events is precluded by all man having an eternal spirit.

what does an eternal spirit then mean to LDS? That it lives forever or is all knowing of the future or both?

Finally, I am wondering why the method of God traveling the universe depends on whether He has a physical or spirit body and why you would think I possibly know that.

you brought his up…God traveling the Universe and I understand that you believe in God the Father having a bodily form. So my question still is, how does this God travel then? You may not know the answer and that is ok. You can reason then if this makes sense or not.

I’m simply trying to understand the LDS belief in the nature of God. What I understand at this point, correct me if I’m misunderstanding:

• God the Father has a human form
• He lives on a planet, and if we had a powerful enough telescope, we could see him
• He is able in the past and now, to travel the universe in some way that is not clear
• He is the son of another God
• he progressed from a man to a God
• he is married to a heavenly mother
  (- is she able to travel with him across the universe?)
• together they are having children in heaven, a number of great quantity and will continue doing so forever

RM, the LDS understanding of God is very different than the nature of God as understood by Christianity for 2000 years. Theology is at its core, faith seeking understanding, includes our trying to understand the very nature of God. We can gain this understanding through revelation itself, the natural world and reason. Do you believe without doubt the points that I listed above? If so, I am curious to know which one(s)?

PnP

 

[iepuras]

I simply don’t know the answer. That is why I asked. I only had a sample size of of one.

what does an eternal spirit then mean to LDS? That it lives forever or is all knowing of the future or both?

you brought his up…God traveling the Universe and I understand that you believe in God the Father having a bodily form. So my question still is, how does this God travel then? You may not know the answer and that is ok. You can reason then if this makes sense or not.

I’m simply trying to understand the LDS belief in the nature of God. What I understand at this point, correct me if I’m misunderstanding:

• God the Father has a human form
• He lives on a planet, and if we had a powerful enough telescope, we could see him
• He is able in the past and now, to travel the universe in some way that is not clear
• He is the son of another God
• he progressed from a man to a God
• he is married to a heavenly mother
  (- is she able to travel with him across the universe?)
• together they are having children in heaven, a number of great quantity and will continue doing so forever

RM, the LDS understanding of God is very different than the nature of God as understood by Christianity for 2000 years. Theology is at its core, faith seeking understanding, includes our trying to understand the very nature of God. We can gain this understanding through revelation itself, the natural world and reason. Do you believe without doubt the points that I listed above? If so, I am curious to know which one(s)?

PnP

When I was LDS I believed all of those things. Obviously, I don’t believe those things anymore. I would presume that heavenly mother could travel the universe with her husband. However, who would take care of all those spirit children? Hopefully heavenly father is a nice enough husband to take care of the kids while she has a girls night with his other wives.

 

[rmcmullan]

1 God the Father has a human form
2 He lives on a planet, and if we had a powerful enough telescope, we could see him
3 He is able in the past and now, to travel the universe in some way that is not clear
4 He is the son of another God
5 he progressed from a man to a God
6 he is married to a heavenly mother
7 together they are having children in heaven, a number of great quantity and will continue doing so fo…
PnP

1. Hopefully it’s not a surprise that we are created in His image.
2. The way you are saying this is quite different than the scripture in the Pearl of Great Price. You should see that, I can’t really agree with your wording.
3. He is capable of travel yes, I can’t say much but his range or velocity.
4. If you refer to the gospel of John, you will here Him claim unambiguously to be the Son of God.
5. I know of no such scripture.
6. I know of no such scripture.
7. I know of no such scripture.

 

[MattofTexas]

1. Hopefully it’s not a surprise that we are created in His image.
2. The way you are saying this is quite different than the scripture in the Pearl of Great Price. You should see that, I can’t really agree with your wording.
3. He is capable of travel yes, I can’t say much but his range or velocity.
4. If you refer to the gospel of John, you will here Him claim unambiguously to be the Son of God.
5. I know of no such scripture.
6. I know of no such scripture.
7. I know of no such scripture.
   4.We’re talking about God the Father, correct? Could you please provide the chapter and verse in John specifically that you are referring to?
8. So you’re saying that you personally do not believe in a Heavenly Mother or Mothers? If that’s the case do you also deny that human beings were first (literally) born as God’s spirit children before coming to Earth? Is this the official LDS position or a doctrine that you hold based on your understanding of the Standard Works?

 

[Porknpie]

1. Hopefully it’s not a surprise that we are created in His image.
2. The way you are saying this is quite different than the scripture in the Pearl of Great Price. You should see that, I can’t really agree with your wording.
3. He is capable of travel yes, I can’t say much but his range or velocity.
4. If you refer to the gospel of John, you will here Him claim unambiguously to be the Son of God.
5. I know of no such scripture.
6. I know of no such scripture.
7. I know of no such scripture.

RM -

My sense is that an ex-LDS or two can provide the scripture references for the points above (coming from Joseph Smith I believe, not the bible)

Are 5,6,7 beliefs that the LDS Church teaches, whether they are in scripture or not?

And are there any points above that you do not hold to be true, if so which ones?

PnP

 

[RebeccaJ]

PnP, way back when I was LDS, there was a Sunday school teacher who believed the Gods traveled in beams of light. His reasoning being, two Gods appeared to Joseph Smith, standing in a beam of light, So, the Gods can travel the speed of light.

This isn’t Mormon doctrine, but LDS members speculate. Some speculate more than others, but most will not share their speculations with non-LDS.