- Status
C
cthulhubryan
Guest
Nope. If one were to consider Mormons capable of any Christian heresy (since they are non-christians I donât see how they could) one of the heresies would be Pelagianism.
Your blog tries to split hairs in order to say that you believe that Adam sinned but that original sin didnât taint humanity. This is akin to saying that water is wet but it will not make your clothes damp if you jump in it.
Your blog tries to split hairs in order to say that you believe that Adam sinned but that original sin didnât taint humanity. This is akin to saying that water is wet but it will not make your clothes damp if you jump in it.
Z
zerinus
Guest
C
cthulhubryan
Guest
My comments only make no sense if you are a non-Christian.
Your blog says
Pelagianism is (courtesy of the original catholic encyclopedia)
Therefore the fact that Mormons deny the taint of original sin makes any recognition of original sin by the LDS null and void because they reject the truth of itâs implications for mankind.
Z
zerinus
Guest
It looks like you have a difficulty with understanding plain English. I donât know what Pelagius taught, and I am not interested. But I am interested in what the Scriptures teach. In my Blog, I never denied any âtaint of Original Sinâ. On the contrary, I accepted that aspect of the Original Sin that teaches that mankind has inherited from the Fall of Adam a sinful nature. But I rejected that aspect of it that teaches that mankind is guilty because of the Original Sin. Those are two different things. It appears that you canât tell the difference. Maybe you could benefit from an English language course somewhere.
zerinus
P
ParkerD
Guest
CTH,
You evidently have little understanding of the LDS position about the Fall of Adam, the effects of the atonement, the power of grace, and how Mormons view the purpose of this life.
Mormons believe that Eve chose to eat of the forbidden fruit because she understood that she and Adam could progress in knowledge by eating it. She understood that they would also suffer death by eating it, but was willing to suffer that consequence. She decided the progress in knowledge was worth it. She had been tempted by Satan, but her decision was a deliberate choice that she made.
The kind of knowledge Eve wanted was knowledge that can only be gained by experience, including suffering pain, sorrow, illnesses, and so forth. I personally am glad she made that choice. I have learned far more in my life through difficulties than I would have through an innocent life with no difficulties.
Mormons believe that Adam and Eve were taught about the atonement of Christ soon after their Fall and being cast out of the Garden of Eden. They rejoiced in knowing that Christ had redeemed them from their Fall, which brought them grace and brought all of their posterity unlimited grace if each person would choose it.
Adam and Eve made a difficult choice. âShould we choose to remain innocent, or should we choose to suffer difficulties in a harsh world and eventually suffer death?â They chose not to remain innocent. They were also taught that Christâs atonement would rescue them and their posterity from death, as well as from spiritual darkness if each person would choose spiritual light and life through Christ, including making covenants with Him. Those covenants must be made after making a choiceâa knowledgeable choice.
This is why LDS teachings emphasize baptism after a person has made that knowledgeable choiceâto signify to Christ that they have entered into a covenant with Him, and to be cleansed from their personal sinsânot from Adam and Eveâs transgression. Christ already rescued all humankind from that transgression.
Peace to you and all.
You evidently have little understanding of the LDS position about the Fall of Adam, the effects of the atonement, the power of grace, and how Mormons view the purpose of this life.
Mormons believe that Eve chose to eat of the forbidden fruit because she understood that she and Adam could progress in knowledge by eating it. She understood that they would also suffer death by eating it, but was willing to suffer that consequence. She decided the progress in knowledge was worth it. She had been tempted by Satan, but her decision was a deliberate choice that she made.
The kind of knowledge Eve wanted was knowledge that can only be gained by experience, including suffering pain, sorrow, illnesses, and so forth. I personally am glad she made that choice. I have learned far more in my life through difficulties than I would have through an innocent life with no difficulties.
Mormons believe that Adam and Eve were taught about the atonement of Christ soon after their Fall and being cast out of the Garden of Eden. They rejoiced in knowing that Christ had redeemed them from their Fall, which brought them grace and brought all of their posterity unlimited grace if each person would choose it.
Adam and Eve made a difficult choice. âShould we choose to remain innocent, or should we choose to suffer difficulties in a harsh world and eventually suffer death?â They chose not to remain innocent. They were also taught that Christâs atonement would rescue them and their posterity from death, as well as from spiritual darkness if each person would choose spiritual light and life through Christ, including making covenants with Him. Those covenants must be made after making a choiceâa knowledgeable choice.
This is why LDS teachings emphasize baptism after a person has made that knowledgeable choiceâto signify to Christ that they have entered into a covenant with Him, and to be cleansed from their personal sinsânot from Adam and Eveâs transgression. Christ already rescued all humankind from that transgression.
Peace to you and all.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
How do you explain Godâs reaction to Eveâs and Adamâs choice?
He certainly wasnât very pleased. In fact, Adam and Eve were the first in a long line of disobedient children of God. Thatâs why after so may years of punishing his children, he sent his only son as ransom from the evil one. Christ died so that Godâs children may have eternal life. Without him, just death.
Z
zerinus
Guest
Adam and Eveâs partaking of the fruit was an act of disobedience. It was a sin. Nobody is denying that. It also brought on them death, as anticipated. God had said they would die if they eat of the fruit, and so they did. The question you want to ask yourself is, why did God put the tree in the Garden in the first place? What did He expect to achieve by doing that? And why did He allow Satan to tempt them to eat from it?
zerinus
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
One thing I am not going to do is speculate on Godâs motives. Heâs way beyond my reasoning abilities. However, I think he expected that they would obey him and live in the garden. As for Satan, he was another disobedient one, with a grudge. His motives are pretty obvious.
But in any case, there was original sin, and the wages of sin is death. Christ lifted the curse with his own death on the cross.
R
ralphinal
Guest
God has always wanted us to love him. In order for us to love him, we must choose to love him. Had there been no way for Adam and Eve to disobey God, they could not choose to love him by obeying him. Had there been no choice, there would be no love.
C
cthulhubryan
Guest
Okay insultboy.
Letâs leave Pelagius out of it. Mormons deny the taint of Original Sin. Period. Do not lie about it any more. Each person born is guilty from that taint. Not just a sinful nature, guilty. By denial of that, Mormons deny the sanctifying grace of Christâs ressurection. By denying that, Mormons deny the immaculate conception.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Christine,
I agree that God sent His Only Begotten Son as a ransom, and that without Him, just death.
But in answer to your question about Godâs reaction, here are the verses from Genesis 3:
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wifeâs name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
It doesnât say whether God was pleased or displeased. It doesnât say God was angry. It says God told them of the consequences of their choice. It doesnât say He wished they had not partaken so they could have kept living in the Garden of Eden.
It says in essence, ânow youâre going to have a lot of sorrow, quite a lot of pain, a lot of work amidst thorns and thistlesâno easy road.â I think these aspects of life are a blessing to humankind, because they put us into a situation where we grow. God knew that Jesus Christ, the Savior, was a part of His plan for His children. He also knew we needed to grow through the struggles and pains of this life. He let Eve and Adam choose for themselves whether they would enter into that condition of struggles and pains. He didnât force them. But He wasnât angry when they did choose it.
J
Jerusha
Guest
If God is the Ultimate Rational Person, then He would not show His anger unless He knew it would do some good. Sort of like the child who misbehaves, the parent understands why, and chooses not to show anger, but instead chooses to implement appropritae consequences. More like disapppointment.
But, of course, you do not understand a loving God. You only understand one who is vengeful. Here is Aquinasâs discussion of the nature of original sin:
Once you understand that, all of the flaws of LDS become obvious. And many of the sins of humanity, too.
Judging oneself to be superior to others.
But, of course, you do not understand a loving God. You only understand one who is vengeful. Here is Aquinasâs discussion of the nature of original sin:
newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm
Once you understand that, all of the flaws of LDS become obvious. And many of the sins of humanity, too.
Judging oneself to be superior to others.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
He sounds pretty angry to me! If someone curses you and casts you off their land, thatâs a pretty good sign that person is angry.
God did give man free will, but He always wanted to be loved and revered by the ones he made in his own image. The serpent wanted to corrupt Godâs children. He told Eve that she could become like God if she ate the fruit. That tempted her so much that she ate the fruit.
No one but God can be God.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Jerusha,If God is the Ultimate Rational Person, then He would not show His anger unless He knew it would do some good. Sort of like the child who misbehaves, the parent understands why, and chooses not to show anger, but instead chooses to implement appropritae consequences. More like disapppointment.
But, of course, you do not understand a loving God. You only understand one who is vengeful. Here is Aquinasâs discussion of the nature of original sin: (quote)
I donât know to whom you are referring that does not âunderstand a loving God,â and âonly understand
Just because Aquinas reasoned a certain way, doesnât make it so.
I donât think God was disappointed in Adam and Eve. I donât think you can demonstrate from the Bible that He was. You can say that He was, and infer based on the consequence that âHe must have beenâthat is such a hard consequence.â But I think you and Aquinas have made wrong inferences.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Parker,
Are you saying that God wants people to go to hell?
Are you saying that God wants people to go to hell?
P
ParkerD
Guest
Christine,
God cursed the serpent, not Adam and Eve.
Eve understood that she could âknow good and evilâ by partaking of the forbidden fruit. She doesnât say she âwants to become like Godâ. Surely you donât think that she thought that taking a bite of some fruit was going to make her like God. She was innocent, but not that naive. Think about it. If you had been Eve, would you have thought that eating some fruit would make you become like God?
She sensed that âknowing good and evilâ would be an opportunity to progress and grow. She wanted that growth. She didnât want to stay innocent and without growth, in the Garden of Eden.
Is knowing good and evil a bad thing, or a good thing?
M
mormonboy
Guest
It was essencial to become mortal in Godâs plan.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Ralph,
I didnât say anything about hell. Neither does the passage in Genesis. Nor does it infer it. I of course donât think God wants that for anyone. Of course He doesnât.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
The serpent then said: âIf you eat from this tree, you
yourselves will become like God.â Eve looked at the tree. The
fruit looked so beautiful and so good to eat. She wanted to
taste it very badly. She stretched out her hand and plucked a
fruit. She ate of the fruit and than gave it to Adam, who also
ate of it.
Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Immediately everything
became different for them. Everything changed. They became
afraid. The animals in the garden also became afraid. Adam
and Eve felt ashamed of themselves. They thought that it was
because they had no clothes on, so out of leaves they made
clothes for themselves.
Then they heard the voice of God in the garden and they hid
themselves. God called to Adam: âWhere are you?â Adam
replied: âI heard You, but I hid myself because I have no
clothes.â
Then God asked, âWho told you that you should be ashamed
to have no clothes? Did you eat fruit from the tree of
knowledge of good and evil?â Adam answered: âThe wife You
gave me offered the fruit to me and I ate it.â Eve said: âThe
serpent told me that it was good, so I ate of it.â
Adam and Eve did not ask Godâs forgiveness. They did not
say they were sorry, but they tried to pass their fault from one
to another.
Adam and Eveâs life in the beautiful garden was over. They
had to leave it and go out into the world and work. From that
time on, an angel with a fiery sword guarded the entrance of
the garden which was called Paradise.
Adam had to work very hard out in the world to make a living
from the earth where weeds and thistles grew as well as
crops. Because he had to work so hard, the sweat would often
pour down his face.
Eve came to know what is was to be unhappy, to be tired, and
to be sick. The children of Adam and Eve and the children of
their children and all the people that were born after them had
to live this way.
But even as God closed the garden to Adam and Eve, He
made them a promise. He promised that one day a Savior
would be born who would conquer all evil and would again
open the doors to âParadise.â We now know that this Savior
was Jesus Christ.
- Status