Do Mormons believe that God was once a man?

[Semper_Fi_1]

Good one!

However, are you sure that isn’t the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

…I’ve always thought the two should combine forces…

Mormonism and the JWs spring from the same American movement.

 

[Fa_Chan]

Oh my… Mormons are avoiding this as I had expected. It’s because they have answers for their beliefs but that have nothing to back it up with. Except…well they have faith…

I find this kind of raving very rude. Instead of belittling them for their beliefs and accusing them of straying away because they are fearful, how about waiting patiently till they do get the time to answer and then entering into dialogue with them.

Very rude.

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

After reading more and more people jump on the bandwagon of bashing and belittling Zenius and mormons, how about offering some true substance to your posts instead of cheap jabs. How about offering kindness to your “mislead” fellow Christians instead of spitefulness?

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

After reading more and more people jump on the bandwagon of bashing and belittling Zenius and mormons, how about offering some true substance to your posts instead of cheap jabs. How about offering kindness to your “mislead” fellow Christians instead of spitefulness? I’m a Buddhist, how about making fun of me and my faith? Does it make you feel better and holier?

Fa Chan

 

[Kristine1957]

After reading more and more people jump on the bandwagon of bashing and belittling Zenius and mormons, how about offering some true substance to your posts instead of cheap jabs. How about offering kindness to your “mislead” fellow Christians instead of spitefulness? I’m a Buddhist, how about making fun of me and my faith? Does it make you feel better and holier?

Fa Chan

Fa Chan: Speaking for myself I wasn’t trying to be rude, I was stating that when you try to have a conversation with alot of Mormons on this forum they do not reply when they cant back up their beliefs with their doctrine.

 

[Kristine1957]

Mormonism and the JWs spring from the same American movement.

Does anyone know the difference between Mormon and JW? I thought the two were very different?

 

[JonathanKinsman]

After reading more and more people jump on the bandwagon of bashing and belittling Zenius and mormons, how about offering some true substance to your posts instead of cheap jabs. How about offering kindness to your “mislead” fellow Christians instead of spitefulness? I’m a Buddhist, how about making fun of me and my faith? Does it make you feel better and holier?

Fa Chan

Do you think it makes us “feel better and holier”?

I think you misunderstand Mormonism. It is NOT a Christian based religion.

Ex-Mormons and others on these threads have made that very clear: it’s mormon doctrine and belief we question and attack.

Now if you had read these threads you would have noticed Zerinus stating it as plain as possible that he refuses to acknowledge “poster A” *
because “A” keeps questioning his lack of scriptural foundation and historical proof on a variety of Mormon doctrines.

Most ex-Mormons share their experiences prior to becoming Catholic and point out the silliness and goofiness of their prior beliefs.

If this is “bashing and belittling” Zerinus, then one way you could view it is as a koan: an exercise by Zerinus in trying to break down our reasoning.

We offer to pray for him. And we do. We ask him to address our questions directly. And he ignores us.

Do not mistake goading for bashing.

We are not the ones who call Catholics “damned people who have apostasized [sic]” and “members of an evil religion.”

As for Mormon beliefs: the ridicule is deserved. That sect has a checkered history of polygamy, extreme nationalism, racism and misogyny that its own leadership refuses to disassociate itself from or acknowledge as being wrong, morally and philosophically.

Gee, Fa Chan, what do you suggest we do??*

 

[JonathanKinsman]

After reading more and more people jump on the bandwagon of bashing and belittling Zenius and mormons, how about offering some true substance to your posts instead of cheap jabs. How about offering kindness to your “mislead” fellow Christians instead of spitefulness? I’m a Buddhist, how about making fun of me and my faith? Does it make you feel better and holier?

Fa Chan

Do you think it makes us “feel better and holier”?

I think you misunderstand Mormonism. It is NOT a Christian based religion.

Ex-Mormons and others on these threads have made that very clear: it’s mormon doctrine and belief we question and attack.

Now if you had read these threads you would have noticed Zerinus stating it as plain as possible that he refuses to acknowledge “poster A” *
because “A” keeps questioning his lack of scriptural foundation and historical proof on a variety of Mormon doctrines.

Most ex-Mormons share their experiences prior to becoming Catholic and point out the silliness and goofiness of their prior beliefs.

If this is “bashing and belittling” Zerinus, then one way you could view it is as a koan: an exercise by Zerinus in trying to break down our reasoning.

We offer to pray for him. And we do. We ask him to address our questions directly. And he ignores us.

Do not mistake goading for bashing.

We are not the ones who call Catholics “damned people who have apostasized [sic]” and “members of an evil religion.”

As for Mormon beliefs: the ridicule is deserved. That sect has a checkered history of polygamy, extreme nationalism, racism and misogyny that its own leadership refuses to disassociate itself from or acknowledge as being wrong, morally and philosophically.

Gee, Fa Chan, what do you suggest we do??*

 

[Fa_Chan]

Do you think it makes us “feel better and holier”?

I don’t know, does it?

I think you misunderstand Mormonism. It is NOT a Christian based religion.

That’s your biased opinion. I could say Mormonism is true and Catholicism is wrong. That’s easy to say.

Ex-Mormons and others on these threads have made that very clear: it’s mormon doctrine and belief we question and attack.

Now if you had read these threads you would have noticed Zerinus stating it as plain as possible that he refuses to acknowledge “poster A” *
because “A” keeps questioning his lack of scriptural foundation and historical proof on a variety of Mormon doctrines.

Most ex-Mormons share their experiences prior to becoming Catholic and point out the silliness and goofiness of their prior beliefs.

If this is “bashing and belittling” Zerinus, then one way you could view it is as a koan: an exercise by Zerinus in trying to break down our reasoning.*
Just because previous Mormons point out the supposed errors of their faith doesn’t mean they are right either. I’m simply saying even if people attack your faith doesn’t mean you take cheapshots at their character or motivations.

We offer to pray for him. And we do. We ask him to address our questions directly. And he ignores us.

That’s his fault. And, I’m glad to see that you offer to pray for him.

Do not mistake goading for bashing.

To me they are the opposing sides of the same coin.

We are not the ones who call Catholics “damned people who have apostasized [sic]” and “members of an evil religion.”

Some people do that. I hear it all the time because of my faith. It bothers me, but I simply try to respond in a kind manner. If they will not listen and continue to respond inappropriately then I walk away. I ignore them.

As for Mormon beliefs: the ridicule is deserved. That sect has a checkered history of polygamy, extreme nationalism, racism and misogyny that its own leadership refuses to disassociate itself from or acknowledge as being wrong, morally and philosophically.

Polygamy is not evil. The children of Israel practiced it and were not condemned. I don’t see any extremes of nationalism or racism in Mormonism any more than I find in the secular world. If people are racist or extreme nationalist it’s because of their personal misguided ideology, not because of Joseph Smith Jr. and Mormonism. I studied it from both sides of pro and con and didn’t find any.

Gee, Fa Chan, what do you suggest we do??

I suggest kindness. And then I suggest ignoring.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

Fa Chan: Speaking for myself I wasn’t trying to be rude, I was stating that when you try to have a conversation with alot of Mormons on this forum they do not reply when they cant back up their beliefs with their doctrine.

My perception of the way the thread was going was similar to a circle of kids taunting a new kid on the playground. That’s the picture in my head. There have been many mormons who gladly shared their beliefs and backed them up. NotreDameMormon was one of them. I haven’t seen him in a short time, but I’m sure he’s still around. And it could be that some of the Mormons who come here have stated the same things over and over till they are sick of it. Things aren’t always how they appear to be. Give people a chance.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[zerinus]

My perception of the way the thread was going was similar to a circle of kids taunting a new kid on the playground. That’s the picture in my head. There have been many mormons who gladly shared their beliefs and backed them up. NotreDameMormon was one of them. I haven’t seen him in a short time, but I’m sure he’s still around. And it could be that some of the Mormons who come here have stated the same things over and over till they are sick of it. Things aren’t always how they appear to be. Give people a chance.

Peace…

Fa Chan

Hi Fa Chan. It is good to hear from you. You must have been lurking in the background for a long time if you can remember NotreDameMormon! In response to your exchanges with others in this thread, I should like to add that I am not at all reluctant to respond to people’s honest questions and to back up my arguments with sound reason and relevant scripture. I have been doing that here since September, and have clocked up 860 posts to my credit so far, all of them well reasoned and backed up with supporting evidence. If I was afraid of answering people, I wouldn’t have done that. But when you have had as much experience in debating with people on message boards as I have had, you will soon learn that very often the best way to answer a post (and sometimes a poster) is to ignore them completely, and not reply to them. This thread has been a good example. You have judged it well. It is beneath my dignity to answer them. I would be demeaning myself if I did. If these buffoons had a valid argument to bring against LDS, they wouldn’t talk like this. Their posts amount to nothing more than an admission of defeat—except that they are all bad losers. They don’t know how to do it with grace! Well, there is no need to reply to that kind of post. It is best ignored.

zerinus

 

[Fa_Chan]

Okay, I have to do a little bit of back-pedaling here. After viewing some of the other threads regarding Mormonism and seeing the mud-slinging on them, I can honestly say this thread was much more relaxed. I think the moderators should be more active in some of these threads to keep the level of animosity down.

I truly wish we could all get along regardless of our faith. I’m a bit of a diplomat and usually spend my time playing referee whether on purpose or not. Life is much grander when we spend it with kindness and compassion instead of conflict.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming…

Sorry for the derailment of the OP’s thread.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

Hi Fa Chan. It is good to hear from you. You must have been lurking in the background for a long time if you can remember NotreDameMormon! In response to your exchanges with others in this thread, I should like to add that I am not at all reluctant to respond to people’s honest questions and to back up my arguments with sound reason and relevant scripture. I have been doing that here since September, and have clocked up 860 posts to my credit so far, all of them well reasoned and backed up with supporting evidence. If I was afraid of answering people, I wouldn’t have done that. But when you have had as much experience in debating with people on message boards as I have had, you will soon learn that very often the best way to answer a post (and sometimes a poster) is to ignore them completely, and not reply to them. This thread has been a good example. You have judged it well. It is beneath my dignity to answer them. I would be demeaning myself if I did. If these buffoons had a valid argument to bring against LDS, they wouldn’t talk like this. Their posts amount to nothing more than an admission of defeat—except that they are all bad losers. They don’t know how to do it with grace! Well, there is no need to reply to that kind of post. It is best ignored.

zerinus

Good day to you too zerinus. I must warn you though that I’m a heathen in a monotheists eyes, so beware of becoming too friendly I signed up back in June 2004 and deleted my yahoo account and lost my previous moniker as ahimsaman72 (long story).

NotreDameMormon was very open and honest and I always enjoyed his posts. As I said in another post I just wish people could get along. But, as long as we continue our motto of “my way is the only way” then dialogue becomes difficult and filled with insults and meaningless chatter.

And yes, I am aware that you are not reluctant to share your views as you have on other threads and that’s why I admonished some here to give Mormons a chance to reply.

I have much admiration for the Mormon faith and Joseph Smith Jr. I also admire qualities in the Catholic faith and really admired His Holiness Pope John Paul II. Though I subscribe to neither faith I can appreciate them for what they are - religions with good values while having differing theologies.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Allweather]

Okay, I have to do a little bit of back-pedaling here. After viewing some of the other threads regarding Mormonism and seeing the mud-slinging on them, I can honestly say this thread was much more relaxed. I think the moderators should be more active in some of these threads to keep the level of animosity down.

Fa Chan, you might want to check out your skin thickness. Arguing religion is not for people who bleed easily. While I tend to agree with you that, at times, the heat gets high, I never see it get TOO high, and believe me, the CA moderators are quick to step in when it does get TOO high. The old saying about heat: if you can’t stand it, stay out of the kitchen… that applies here.

I truly wish we could all get along regardless of our faith. I’m a bit of a diplomat and usually spend my time playing referee whether on purpose or not. Life is much grander when we spend it with kindness and compassion instead of conflict.

That’s fine. But this place, this forum, is NOT the place for that sort of singing-Kumbaya. This is a place of debate and argument. Debate and argument can get heated. Language can seem strong. Yet, people can still remain friends. For all of our disagreement, I feel certain that Zerinus and wussup, and others, would be our friends if we ever met in the flesh. This may be a concept with which you are unfamiliar. I like to respectfully suggest you spend some more time browsing the threads, familiarizing yourself with the various personalities, and then making clearer judgements about what goes on here.

 

[Allweather]

If these buffoons had a valid argument to bring against LDS, they wouldn’t talk like this. Their posts amount to nothing more than an admission of defeat—except that they are all bad losers. They don’t know how to do it with grace! Well, there is no need to reply to that kind of post. It is best ignored.

zerinus

And, there you have it, Fa Chen. We can usually let Zerinus’ words speak for themselves.

One thing you have to understand about Zerinus, Fa Chen, is that he is a proseletyzer for his religion. He isn’t here merely to debate and “have fun” as he has claimed for himself in the past. No. He is here trolling for weak-kneed Catholics and confused Protestants who entered looking for information about Catholicism. So, we deal with Zerinus in such a way that that fact remains uppermost in everyone’s frame of attention. Once you know someone is trying to sell you a used car, you know how to deal with that person, don’t you?

 

[Allweather]

Polygamy is not evil. The children of Israel practiced it and were not condemned.

Actually, they WERE condemned for adopting the religious practices of the pagan nations that surrounded them. They were repeatedly warned by God, through various prophets, NOT to intermarry with the pagans. One result of this intermarriage was that pagan religions found their way into Hebrew piety via the marriage bed. Among these pagan practices was polygamy. When Jesus came, he taught very clearly about marriage. Catholicism and Christianity at large have consistently taught that polygamy is an abomination, and have not tolerated it. Secular societies, for various good reasons, have also prohibited it.

I don’t see any extremes of nationalism or racism in Mormonism any more than I find in the secular world. If people are racist or extreme nationalist it’s because of their personal misguided ideology, not because of Joseph Smith Jr. and Mormonism. I studied it from both sides of pro and con and didn’t find any.

Actually, there ARE Mormon teachings that are racist and extreme nationalist. I’m not convinced that you’ve studied Mormonism very much. Again, please do study recent threads here that give much information in this realm of Mormon racism. The nationalism thing, less so, although because Mormonism was born of Americanism (among other things) it has always had a tint of American exceptionalism to it. For instance, Mormons believe that Jesus will come back to Earth in Missouri, rather than Israel. If you are able to maintain your opinions of Mormonism after getting all these facts, then I don’t know what to say to you…

 

[Fa_Chan]

Fa Chan, you might want to check out your skin thickness. Arguing religion is not for people who bleed easily. While I tend to agree with you that, at times, the heat gets high, I never see it get TOO high, and believe me, the CA moderators are quick to step in when it does get TOO high. The old saying about heat: if you can’t stand it, stay out of the kitchen… that applies here.

I have argued religion for years and it ends up nowhere but with high egos and damaged relations between people and faiths. I’ve been here long enough to know that mods rarely step in. I moderate an interfaith forum and we try to steer conversations when they start to get nasty. I don’t think it has anything to do with skin thickness. It has everything to do with civility and intelligent debating. Debating isn’t bad if it’s done in a constructive and respectful way.

That’s fine. But this place, this forum, is NOT the place for that sort of singing-Kumbaya. This is a place of debate and argument. Debate and argument can get heated. Language can seem strong. Yet, people can still remain friends. For all of our disagreement, I feel certain that Zerinus and wussup, and others, would be our friends if we ever met in the flesh. This may be a concept with which you are unfamiliar. I like to respectfully suggest you spend some more time browsing the threads, familiarizing yourself with the various personalities, and then making clearer judgements about what goes on here.

Haha, I had to chuckle. No, I don’t believe this is a place to sing Kumbaya together, but it can be. We can still be respectful and get our point across. I’m deeply familiar with forums and the interaction between people and their subsequent relationships as I moderate an interfaith message forum and have spent years on internet message boards. I disagree with many people, but at the end of the day, I remain respectful of their views and them as people.

I’ve been around since June 2004. I’m well aware of many of the personalities. They are the same now as always. My judgement is clear. There is too much chatter and nonsense and not enough intelligent, respectful dialogue between people of all faiths.

In the old days there were Catholics like Mercygate and Church Militant that were intelligent, respectful and kind in their debating. And there were Mormons such as NotreDameMormon who also were intelligent, respectful and kind. There needs to be a resurgence of such openness and kindness here.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

And, there you have it, Fa Chen. We can usually let Zerinus’ words speak for themselves.

One thing you have to understand about Zerinus, Fa Chen, is that he is a proseletyzer for his religion. He isn’t here merely to debate and “have fun” as he has claimed for himself in the past. No. He is here trolling for weak-kneed Catholics and confused Protestants who entered looking for information about Catholicism. So, we deal with Zerinus in such a way that that fact remains uppermost in everyone’s frame of attention. Once you know someone is trying to sell you a used car, you know how to deal with that person, don’t you?

I don’t advocate any side using derogatory statements and accusations. My judgement is no different for him than it is for any other person of any faith. Deal with him as you wish. That’s your perogative. I would suggest an alternative route of kindness and/or ignoring if you dislike what he says.

Well, my way of dealing with such a person is to kindly and respectfully say “no thanks” and walk away. How do you deal with them? Tell them to go to hades and have a terrible life?

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Allweather]

I’ve been here long enough to know that mods rarely step in.

I agree, but I DO see them step in from time to time. I see the realtively hands-off approach as a strength, rather than as a weakness, as you apparently do. The CA forums are immensely successful, and in spite of some spirited argument, have not IMO disintegrated into name-calling, as others have.

I moderate an interfaith forum and we try to steer conversations when they start to get nasty. I don’t think it has anything to do with skin thickness. It has everything to do with civility and intelligent debating.

This is also a matter of style and an overall view of argument. You apparently are very involved in “managing” your forum. There’s nothing wrong with that; it is a perfectly valid way to go. For people who can’t take heated argument, that is a better place to hang out.

Debating isn’t bad if it’s done in a constructive and respectful way.

Debating is NEVER bad, even when it gets a little “disrespectful.” If you’ve ever watched a group of men who are close friends sit around and chat, you will see and hear behaviors that seem to be rather unfriendly, even insulting. But that isn’t the way things really are between them. Be careful about appearances of things which often do not describe the reality.

Moreover, we are arguing religion. Religion is a very important subject. Some people are captivated by false religions that teach sinful things, like polygamy. You may have recently been aware of news reports about a polygamous Mormon sect whose founder is behind bars on charges of child abuse. While you may not consider polygamy to be “evil” I would be surprised if you didn’t consider child abuse to be “evil.” Some of us consider these things to be connected together. Mormonism, polygamy, child abuse. If you are a woman, then you may feel that polygamy as an institution, in which women are commanded to obey their polygamous husbands under threat of “destruction” by God Almighty, is a rather sinful institution. Then again, you may not.

 

[Fa_Chan]

Actually, they WERE condemned for adopting the religious practices of the pagan nations that surrounded them. They were repeatedly warned by God, through various prophets, NOT to intermarry with the pagans. One result of this intermarriage was that pagan religions found their way into Hebrew piety via the marriage bed. Among these pagan practices was polygamy. When Jesus came, he taught very clearly about marriage. Catholicism and Christianity at large have consistently taught that polygamy is an abomination, and have not tolerated it. Secular societies, for various good reasons, have also prohibited it.

Whoa, hold on partner. First, we were talking about polygamy among the Old Testament fathers. The Bible is clear that they did practice, even the beloved King David. Intermarrying with pagans is a different issue altogether. Of course they were told not to do that. I don’t see what bearing that has on King David or his great son King Solomon having over 600 wives and concubines. Please explain.

No, my friend. Lamech way back in the OT was the first to have more than one wife. There were no Pagans at that point. Polygamy is not a polytheistic phenomenon.

Christianity came along and polygamy became a taboo practice. Polygamy was not expressly condemned in New Testament Scripture. It was implied, but Jesus nor the apostles taught extensively about it.

Actually, there ARE Mormon teachings that are racist and extreme nationalist. I’m not convinced that you’ve studied Mormonism very much. Again, please do study recent threads here that give much information in this realm of Mormon racism. The nationalism thing, less so, although because Mormonism was born of Americanism (among other things) it has always had a tint of American exceptionalism to it. For instance, Mormons believe that Jesus will come back to Earth in Missouri, rather than Israel. If you are able to maintain your opinions of Mormonism after getting all these facts, then I don’t know what to say to you…

Instead of telling me that they exist, please show me some evidence. I haven’t seen any and am willing to look at anything you may have to that effect. If you can point out racism in the posts here on the forum please do. Again, please show me. I’m not lazy. I simply haven’t seen them. If they do exist, again, isn’t it possible that it’s a personal mislead ideology instead of a church teaching?

You certainly are sure of yourself. Yes, Joseph Smith Jr. said the New Jerusalem/Zion was to be in Independence, Missouri and there is a temple that itself now rests in the hands of the RLDS after legal battles with the LDS leadership in SLC. I’m well aware of that. I don’t see how that view makes them nationalists to the extreme.

I’m not convinced that you have studied Mormonism as much as you say and am surprised by your assertion that my studies are somehow inadequate. Come now, must we travel that road? Simply agree or disagree without judging each others intelligence or abilities?

Peace…

Fa Chan