yeah but they got said by alleged “prophets, seers and reelators” who were acting in an official capacity. if you can’t trust the “oracles of the lord”, especially when they back up their statements with scripture and teachings of mormon prophets and do it in general conference then where is the foundation of the LDS church? lookin’ mighty sandy to me.
Yes, but bigotry is something that is found among all kinds of people, Catholics included. The question isn’t whether a Mormon prophet was a bigot, but whether “Mormons believe this.” I have here at my fingertips other sayings of various Mormon leaders that resemble what I quoted from Kimball. So, I think we could agree that it wasn’t just Spencer Kimball who had these ideas. These ideas came out of the BoM, and permeate Mormon beliefs and teachings.
I notice you tend to see things in apposition to the Pope. I’d like to encourage you to continue to do that, and to actually do some study of the Popes, to find out what they’ve said and written, especially the Popes since, say, the American Revolutionary period. That period would encompass the rise (and fall?) of Mormonism.
Pres. Kimball’s statements weren’t “stupid” at all! He believed what the Book of Mormon had to say regarding the Lamanites. He was simply paraphrasing LDS scripture. Now that the BOM has been changed, modern leaders don’t have to worry about making a similar gaffe.
Notice this part I copied and pasted here:
My grandparents and parents were racist and they were Baptist. Does that make all Baptists racist?
He didn’t say that. He said the darker ones (5 of them) were EQUALLY delightsome. This is a cultural phenomenon. We all have a choice on whether to pass on our heritage of racism or not. Live in the South for any length of time and you will see racism from all walks of life and faiths. There are white churches and black churches. Kimball’s remarks are not racial.
I may be. Wouldn’t be the first time. I’m open to criticisms.
I grew up in Texas, and have lived all over the south, including Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee. I’m very familiar with racism. My father and his father was notable racists, very unapologetic. I picked up a lot of it and was a racist most of my first 40 years, and still have to fight against it in myself. This is part of my own personal crucifixion, putting to death the desires of the flesh in order to realize a greater share in the glory of God.
I think the BoM is just as plausible as other religious texts, even the Bible. Many passages of both are similar (said to be plagiarized by Joseph), but I find them equally credible. An ancient writing put on metal plates is just as credible as God writing with his finger upon stone tablets. There are countless angelic beings with different functions. Some are archangels with high duties and others who have different duties. I don’t find that strange at all. If you do a search in the Bible you will find references to such usage of a Urim and Thummim. Joshua used the Urim to receive answers from God after he succeeded Moses. Eleazar the High Priest was involved with this also. Exodus 28:30; Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21, Deuteronomy 33:8 are Scripture references that explicitly detail the usage of an actual Urim and Thummim by good ole Israelites leaders like Joshua and High Priests of Israel.
By the way, I see your heart is good and humble. You are sincere and I can see that.
I think the BoM is truly strange, and so do an awful lot of other people. In fairness, though, lots of people find the Bible strange, too. Lots of people think that God is strange, or that He doesn’t even exist. You’re reminding me of those.
Wow, we’re getting off to a nice start aren’t we? Buddhists do believe that they can become Buddhas just as the original Buddha did. So, in a sense this could be equated to the doctrine of eternal progression in Mormonism.
First, I’m not Mormon and never have been. I studied it for a while, but never went to a church or stake nor consulted with missionaries. My journey into Buddhism is long and complicated, far removed from this topic.
Sigh, I’ve been around here since June 2004 and went through a long journey of struggle and hardship to be where I am today. I don’t condone anyone’s bad behavior. I advocate kindness and compassion wherever it may be found. Zerinius deserves kindness and compassion as you do.
sect as the true “Christian” church.]
But what about the similarities? I mean, in all fairness the parallels are striking - stone tablets, metal plates; urim and thummim in both faiths, etc. I think the God that Christians serve is very strange. If he exists, I don’t believe he is the person people portray him to be. I envision him as kinder, more compassionate and loving.
The actual quote is below:
Your addition is simply your interpretation of the text which is no more authoritative than mine. I look at the text and see that the five were “darker but EQUALLY delightsome”. Frankly, I don’t see any other way to understand that. They were equally delightsome. Their darkness is relative. How dark were they? Like South African dark or dark like American Blacks? Truth is, neither I nor you know the answer. Only Spencer Kimball knows.
And that’s supposed to help your point how? So what? Every tradition says the other one is wrong and to be far from the truth. What’s the difference?
And that is certainly unfortunate. Again, so what? If I don’t find the Baptists any more authoritative than the Methodists then why would I care what the Baptists think?
I don’t know what you are referring to specifically. If it’s my reference to bickering Christians, well you don’t have to go very far to see that. It’s undeniable. But, not all that uncommon for any religion really.
Boy, it’s too bad you are the only people going to heaven as you are the only “true Christians”. And, many Protestant faiths think Catholicism is not true Christianity. Where does all this get us? Nowhere. I respect people for who they are, regardless of if they are Asian, American, black, white, Mormon, Christian, Muslim. And yes, I appreciate Joseph Smith Jr for his vision and sincere heart.
I’m wondering what I was “called on” and I don’t recall not answering direct questions. If there is something I missed, you can certainly ask me again. Non-responses?
Intellectually shallow? Please explain.
Peace…
Fa Chan
Yes, I noticed the sarcasm. I didn’t attack your faith in the least. If you read the previous posts you would see what I was referring to. I wasn’t even the one who said that God seemed strange to people, AllWeather did. I simply responded by saying that yes, I did find him strange myself. I didn’t attack Catholicism or God. I even have said a few times how much I admired His Holiness Pope John Paul II.
