Do Mormons really believe?

[iepuras]

Two reasons:

First, because this is a Catholic forum…the ‘non-Catholic religions’ is all about everybody who isn’t Catholic, and those people to whom I respond are almost all Catholic. Therefore it’s appropriate because…

Second; I really don’t like hypocrisy. I do not think that it is acceptable behavior for the beam to mouth off about the mote. You will notice that I don’t make anything up; if the ‘Catholics’ DON’T ‘do it too,’ then there’s no way I can say it, is there?

I do notice that there are quite a few of you who are courteous, reasonable and reasoned debaters. These folks do not pull the sort of thing that would prompt a ‘Catholics do it too’ response. They address specific doctrines and ask specific questions, and don’t make the "Mormons eat babies and are racist homophobes’ sort of comments.

(and no, nobody here has accused Mormons of eating babies.)

Diana, did you replace the second half of this post? Because it changed between the time I first read it and refreshed the page to hit reply. You brought up motes and beams, admitted you engaged in a logical fallacy, and used another one of your analogies about a traffic cop who pulls someone over for speeding who then gets out of his own speeding ticket by pulling out his badge. Honestly, I have no idea what that analogy had to do with anything.

You continually criticize the behavior of Catholics when many posters, myself included, criticize the teachings of the LDS church. That is a big difference.

Did the OP ask a question about why LDS believe and behave the way they do? Sure. As an ex-Mormon who has Mormon family who believe, yet are aware of some of the issues, I want to understand why they stay. I have problems with my family, but I actually want to work on the relationship. I want to make sense in my own mind as to why they appear to continue to believe when I simply could not. To me, it doesn’t make sense to stay in a church when one does not believe the truth claims. This applies to Mormons who don’t believe in the Book of Mormon and Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence.

EDIT: So maybe instead of jumping down the throat of the OP, try to understand that some of us what to understand our completely baffling LDS family.

 

[Stephen168]

Second; I really don’t like hypocrisy. I do not think that it is acceptable behavior for the beam to mouth off about the mote. You will notice that I don’t make anything up; if the ‘Catholics’ DON’T ‘do it too,’ then there’s no way I can say it, is there?

The hypocrisy is only in your imagination, because of your faulty reasoning and your lack of understanding of Catholic beliefs. In the latter case you make stuff up. In the former case, after years of trying, I believe you can’t be helped.

The Catholic Church does not require the destruction of the Mormon Church to be true, so I understand your motivation.

 

[drac16]

I’ve read that even a lot of Mormon apostles believe that Mormonism is false:

mormonthink.com/grant9.htm

Yeah, I’ve heard that sort of thing as well.

…but in light of some of the very dubious articles and blogs I’ve read about “former muslims” coming out and attempting to expose my religion as a force of evil, I’m going to be hesitant to accept the accounts of a former mormon who’s now trying to give us insider information. If I’m going to take ex-muslim accounts with a grain of salt, I have to be consistent, even in the case of a church that is not very popular around here [to say the least].

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, did you replace the second half of this post?

Yes.

Because it changed between the time I first read it and refreshed the page to hit reply. You brought up motes and beams, admitted you engaged in a logical fallacy, and used another one of your analogies about a traffic cop who pulls someone over for speeding who then gets out of his own speeding ticket by pulling out his badge. Honestly, I have no idea what that analogy had to do with anything.

Well, since I edited my post, (and one can generally figure that if a post is edited, it’s because the author either wanted to make her point in a different way, or was unhappy for some other reason with it) I’m really not in a position to explain the part I edited out.

Because, well, I edited it out.

You continually criticize the behavior of Catholics when many posters, myself included, criticize the teachings of the LDS church. That is a big difference.

Actually…no.

the fact is, 'many posters, [yourself] included," figure that if any Mormon behaves in any way, then that behavior IS 'the teachings of the LDS church." I’m not going to make the mistake of confusing behavior for doctrine for Catholicism just because you guys do it for us.

On the other hand…it is sometimes difficult to divorce behavior from teachings, when behavior lasts for a long time without correction from those in charge of the teachings. The racism found in both our belief systems is a case in point.

Did the OP ask a question about why LDS believe and behave the way they do? Sure. As an ex-Mormon who has Mormon family who believe, yet are aware of some of the issues, I want to understand why they stay. I have problems with my family, but I actually want to work on the relationship. I want to make sense in my own mind as to why they appear to continue to believe when I simply could not. To me, it doesn’t make sense to stay in a church when one does not believe the truth claims.

Doesn’t to me, either, actually. However, I can understand why a simple non-belief, or a ‘setting in of doubts’ might not be enough. I, for instance, wouldn’t leave simply to leave. I might go TO something better, but just to leave, with nothing to replace it, morally, ethically or spiritually?

Probably not. What good would it do?

This applies to Mormons who don’t believe in the Book of Mormon and Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence.

I am of the opinion that those who have this difficulty had better begin looking for something they can believe in. Y’never know; perhaps if they do, they’ll find themselves ‘coming back home’ in spite of everything.

EDIT: So maybe instead of jumping down the throat of the OP, try to understand that some of us what to understand our completely baffling LDS family.

What, and your ‘completely baffling LDS family’ is going to feel more friendly, helpful, loving and willing to be less confusing by being told that they are ignorant and that you have zero respect for them?

 

[kimg901]

Now this is just my own opinion and things ive observed. Mormons believe in whatever they want to depending on who is around and especially if it makes them look like Christians in the eyes of whom they are talking to. When you move into a new home the lds are quick to be your friend until you turn them down. No more hello or waves when they drive by, just glares and your kids aren’t allowed to play with their kids because your not lds. (my kids and others have come home upset because the lds kids told them "we cant play with you because your not Mormon)

 

[LivingWaters7]

the fact is, 'many posters, [yourself] included," figure that if any Mormon behaves in any way, then that behavior IS 'the teachings of the LDS church." I’m not going to make the mistake of confusing behavior for doctrine for Catholicism just because you guys do it for us.

Actually, you do this very thing many times, as others have pointed out many times.

On the other hand…it is sometimes difficult to divorce behavior from teachings, when behavior lasts for a long time without correction from those in charge of the teachings. The racism found in both our belief systems is a case in point.

There you go again. I and others have been quite clear in demonstrating the false equivalence you repeatedly attempt to make between the LDS church official practice of not ordaining blacks to the priesthood, and the isolated experience of Augustus Tolton and perhaps other blacks in the United States interested in entering seminary, who were affected due to the prejudice of certain Catholics, and not Catholic Church official practice.

At first I was annoyed, especially as a black Catholic, by your repeated insistence on bringing up this fallacious argument (for what apparently has been years), but now I just feel sorry. It seems as if you’ve been repeating it for so long, you won’t accept any correction from actual Catholics on our own Church practice (amusing when I read what you say about such things in relation to Mormons and Mormon explanations).

 

[iepuras]

the fact is, 'many posters, [yourself] included," figure that if any Mormon behaves in any way, then that behavior IS 'the teachings of the LDS church." I’m not going to make the mistake of confusing behavior for doctrine for Catholicism just because you guys do it for us.

On the other hand…it is sometimes difficult to divorce behavior from teachings, when behavior lasts for a long time without correction from those in charge of the teachings. The racism found in both our belief systems is a case in point.

Please provide evidence that someone in this or another thread have stated that Mormon behavior equals LDS church teaching. Equating official teaching of a church and the behavior of its members is false equivalency. Catholics believe we are all sinners and need a Savior. Don’t Mormons also believe that we all sin and need a Savior?

dianaiad:

Doesn’t to me, either, actually. However, I can understand why a simple non-belief, or a ‘setting in of doubts’ might not be enough. I, for instance, wouldn’t leave simply to leave. I might go TO something better, but just to leave, with nothing to replace it, morally, ethically or spiritually?

Probably not. What good would it do?

I am of the opinion that those who have this difficulty had better begin looking for something they can believe in. Y’never know; perhaps if they do, they’ll find themselves ‘coming back home’ in spite of everything.

What good would it do to leave a church of one no longer believes the truth claims? How about living an authentic life in one’s search for truth? Ex-Mormons do not leave the LDS church for nothing. They leave to live a life of integrity and authenticity. The majority are atheist/agnostic, but they still believe in something. They believe in materialist metaphysics. How ethical is it to publicly support an organization one does not actually believe in? I don’t think it is ethical at all.

Actually, these days, ex-Mormons who actually decide to leave and resign don’t go back.

dianaiad:

What, and your ‘completely baffling LDS family’ is going to feel more friendly, helpful, loving and willing to be less confusing by being told that they are ignorant and that you have zero respect for them?

Please stop making personal attacks against me. Where in the world did you get in that post or in ANY of my other posts that I have told my family that they are ignorant and that I have zero respect for them? It is rude of you to suggest it. Could you possibly be projecting your own beliefs about ex-Mormons onto me?

 

[dianaiad]

Yeah, I’ve heard that sort of thing as well.

…but in light of some of the very dubious articles and blogs I’ve read about “former muslims” coming out and attempting to expose my religion as a force of evil, I’m going to be hesitant to accept the accounts of a former mormon who’s now trying to give us insider information. If I’m going to take ex-muslim accounts with a grain of salt, I have to be consistent, even in the case of a church that is not very popular around here [to say the least].

Good thinking. “Mormonthink,” CLAIMS to be a site that ‘sets things straight’ when anybody provides incorrect information about the church…wait. Let me get that quote right. On their home page, they claim this:

MormonThink is concerned with truth. As such, we attempt to correct misinformation about the LDS Church made by critics and defenders of the faith (including the Church itself). We present a range of perspectives and viewpoints, privileging those we believe are the most accurate, consistent and empirically valid.

And yet every single topic listed ON THAT SAME PAGE is critical, ultimately, of the church. Mormonthink doesn’t correct any information given by the critics, except for issues of opinion (Are Mormons Christian?" for instance, is a case in point. While Mormonthink ultimately claims that yes, they are, they spend an inordinate amount of typeface explaining why they aren’t ‘good’ Christians, or ‘real’ Christians as the rest of Chrsitianity defines it, and only comes down on the side of ‘yes, they are,’ because of the name of the church.)

In other words, one can depend that anything one gets from Mormonthink that is written by a Mormonthink author WILL be biased against the church. Expect it.

As for me, I don’t get my information about any belief system from anybody but a ‘true believer’ of that system. That’s the safest way to go.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Please provide evidence that someone in this or another thread have stated that Mormon behavior equals LDS church teaching. Equating official teaching of a church and the behavior of its members is false equivalency. Catholics believe we are all sinners and need a Savior. Don’t Mormons also believe that we all sin and need a Savior?

What good would it do to leave a church of one no longer believes the truth claims? How about living an authentic life in one’s search for truth? Ex-Mormons do not leave the LDS church for nothing. They leave to live a life of integrity and authenticity. The majority are atheist/agnostic, but they still believe in something. They believe in materialist metaphysics. How ethical is it to publicly support an organization one does not actually believe in? I don’t think it is ethical at all.

Actually, these days, ex-Mormons who actually decide to leave and resign don’t go back.

Please stop making personal attacks against me. Where in the world did you get in that post or in ANY of my other posts that I have told my family that they are ignorant and that I have zero respect for them? It is rude of you to suggest it. Could you possibly be projecting your own beliefs about ex-Mormons onto me?

There’s that LDS persecution complex again…

 

[PaulDupre1]

Yes.

Well, since I edited my post, (and one can generally figure that if a post is edited, it’s because the author either wanted to make her point in a different way, or was unhappy for some other reason with it) I’m really not in a position to explain the part I edited out.

Because, well, I edited it out.

Actually…no.

the fact is, 'many posters, [yourself] included," figure that if any Mormon behaves in any way, then that behavior IS 'the teachings of the LDS church." I’m not going to make the mistake of confusing behavior for doctrine for Catholicism just because you guys do it for us.

On the other hand…it is sometimes difficult to divorce behavior from teachings, when behavior lasts for a long time without correction from those in charge of the teachings. The racism found in both our belief systems is a case in point.

Doesn’t to me, either, actually. However, I can understand why a simple non-belief, or a ‘setting in of doubts’ might not be enough. I, for instance, wouldn’t leave simply to leave. I might go TO something better, but just to leave, with nothing to replace it, morally, ethically or spiritually?

Probably not. What good would it do?

I am of the opinion that those who have this difficulty had better begin looking for something they can believe in. Y’never know; perhaps if they do, they’ll find themselves ‘coming back home’ in spite of everything.

What, and your ‘completely baffling LDS family’ is going to feel more friendly, helpful, loving and willing to be less confusing by being told that they are ignorant and that you have zero respect for them?

There it is… that LDS persecution complex again…

 

[iepuras]

There it is… that LDS persecution complex again…

Yup.

 

[SteveVH]

I have a hard time accepting they believe all of the stuff they say they believe in. Do they believe in the LDS gospel or just the LDS social club?

What’s the deal? Do you really think this is a good note on which to start a thread? I don’t know anyone who has ever engaged in a fruitful dialogue that started by slapping the other in the face.

If you have a question about LDS theology or practices then ask pertinent questions. Not only is it objectively rude, remember also that there are thousands of non-Catholics who read these threads and when you identify yourself as Catholic you represent our Church. We should all keep that in mind. Right now it doesn’t have a very friendly face.

Steve

 

[andrewstx]

With permission, I would like to go back to the original question and what I thought it meant.

Do Mormons really believe?

I thought it was asking if mormons believe in God?

To tell the truth I have my doubts, at least when it comes to the normal orthodox idea of God.

And I don’t think they believe in God at all. What they do believe in is “Heavenly Father” a male human who worked his way up to ‘being a god’.

Apparently mormons have a lot of Gods, or “heavenly fathers”. One for each planet. Just regular Joes who ‘worked their ways up’.

This, to me comes uncomfortably close to atheism or perhaps New Age, where every person is her or his own God, and there is no God outside of us.

This is very different from the one God in the Holy Trinity which orthodox Christians place their faith in.

 

[SteveVH]

With permission, I would like to go back to the original question and what I thought it meant.

Do Mormons really believe?

I thought it was asking if mormons believe in God?

And yet it wasn’t asking that at all.

 

[andrewstx]

And yet it wasn’t asking that at all.

But still a good, and pertinent question.

 

[SteveVH]

But still a good, and pertinent question.

Indeed. For another thread that might start out on a better footing. Hint, hint.

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes, let’s go back to the OP:

I have a hard time accepting they believe all of the stuff they say they believe in. Do they believe in the LDS gospel or just the LDS social club?

Does it not strike anyone as understandable how a Mormon could be offended by the way this question is phrased? It implies that the LDS beliefs are so “out there” that no sane person could really believe all that “stuff”. It’s a little condescending.

Now, perhaps that is not the spirit in which James intended the question. But I can understand how someone would interpret it that way.

Pointing out that the same could be said of Catholics is a fair point and I’m not sure why others jumped all over Diana for making it (I don’t usually hang out in this sub-forum, so perhaps there is history I’m not aware of ). We believe that God became a human being, born of a virgin and that at every Mass He transubstantiates a piece of bread and becomes present among us. That can sound a little “out there”, too. And we need not look very far around our own parish pews to recognize there are plenty of Catholics who treat Church as a “social club” rather than something they really believe in.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, let’s go back to the OP:

Does it not strike anyone as understandable how a Mormon could be offended by the way this question is phrased? It implies that the LDS beliefs are so “out there” that no sane person could really believe all that “stuff”. It’s a little condescending.

Now, perhaps that is not the spirit in which James intended the question. But I can understand how someone would interpret it that way.

Pointing out that the same could be said of Catholics is a fair point and I’m not sure why others jumped all over Diana for making it (I don’t usually hang out in this sub-forum, so perhaps there is history I’m not aware of ). We believe that God became a human being, born of a virgin and that at every Mass He transubstantiates a piece of bread and becomes present among us. That can sound a little “out there”, too. And we need not look very far around our own parish pews to recognize there are plenty of Catholics who treat Church as a “social club” rather than something they really believe in.

Thank you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have a hard time accepting they believe all of the stuff they say they believe in. Do they believe in the LDS gospel or just the LDS social club?

Individual LDS believe in a wide range. I don’t see that this is a problem for Mormons, who have no orthodoxy. For Mormons the focus is on orthopraxy not orthodoxy. So, sure, act in the way as expected and you can really believe whatever or not believe at all. Just have the expected outward facing behaviors, and you’re good.

The LDS church changes its doctrines to suit modern religious and spiritual pallets. Also, not a problem for Mormons. No orthodoxy means what is taught today as doctrine, can be taught tomorrow as no longer doctrine, maybe even claimed as never being doctrine. Just keep up with the changes, keep the outward facing behaviors as expected, and you’re good.

This is how Mormonism works. Orthodoxy is strictly seen as placing limits on what knowledge can be received from God. Orthodoxy us something to be avoided. “Right belief” is very limited to a few things. Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, current leaders are prophets. Everything else can be changed.

 

[Stephen168]

At first I was annoyed, especially as a black Catholic, by your repeated insistence on bringing up this fallacious argument (for what apparently has been years), but now I just feel sorry. It seems as if you’ve been repeating it for so long, you won’t accept any correction from actual Catholics on our own Church practice (amusing when I read what you say about such things in relation to Mormons and Mormon explanations).

You will also find the same fallacious argument used by Mormons when talking about the Mormon Church’s teaching on abortion being OK.

They do see a problem when I point out that I knew two Mormon boys in high school who liked to destroy rural mailboxes; therefore the Mormon Church teaches that smashing mailboxes is OK. They point out my false reasoning to defend their church but don’t seem to see how it applies in the case of abortion or the priesthood ban.