Do Mormons really believe?

[dianaiad]

You will also find the same fallacious argument used by Mormons when talking about the Mormon Church’s teaching on abortion being OK.

They do see a problem when I point out that I knew two Mormon boys in high school who liked to destroy rural mailboxes; therefore the Mormon Church teaches that smashing mailboxes is OK. They point out my false reasoning to defend their church but don’t seem to see how it applies in the case of abortion or the priesthood ban.

Please clarify.

While it is true that Mormon boys can smash mailboxes without assuming that the church OK’s smashing mailboxes…it wasn’t all that long ago that a couple of Mormon missionaries vandalized, defaced, and, quite frankly, desecrated some Catholic statues, representations of saints.

The question of what the church teaches is in what is DONE about this sort of behavior. In the case of the missionaries, though the parish did not prosecute (and I really wish they had done so) the LDS church acted. Both missionaries were sent home in dishonor. The church made it quite clear that such behavior was unthinkable. If, because of the charity of the parish, neither one was sent to jail, but there had to be consequences.

Now, you might not think that getting ‘sent home’ from a mission is that big a deal, but…what happens to the future of someone who gets a dishonorable discharge from the armed services?

Pretty much the same thing happens to a missionary who is sent home early for behaving badly.

So the judgment, I think, isn’t so much in the behavior of the believers, but what the leaders of the belief system do about it when bad behavior happens.

I will admit that my personal position on abortion is slightly more strict than that of my church…though I still find it very odd to be accused of being ‘pro-abortion,’ by anybody when the vast majority of pro-abortion folks accuse us of being ‘anti-choice’ and use every nasty epithet they use against you guys. After all, Mormons don’t like abortion either, though we don’t have the same ‘no exceptions’ rule you do. We do allow abortion when the mother’s life is at stake. It just seems wrong to prohibit abortion when the choice is between saving the mother and losing the baby, or losing both. Either way the baby is lost; what use is sacrificing the mother?

Here is where my own view is different from that of my church: I would not abort if I were raped. I would consider the baby the only good thing to come of it. However, I’m not going to judge another for making a different choice.

Oh, well…sorry, rambling.

 

[Stephen168]

Oh, well…sorry, rambling.

My post would have required you to reason, not ramble.

 

[dianaiad]

My post would have required you to reason, not ramble.

And my post, while it ended with a ramble on my position regarding abortion, began with reason specifically about actions and policy, and is worth addressing. It did not deserve a one-line, dismissive, snipe.

 

[dianaiad]

With permission, I would like to go back to the original question and what I thought it meant.

Do Mormons really believe?

I thought it was asking if mormons believe in God?

To tell the truth I have my doubts, at least when it comes to the normal orthodox idea of God.

And I don’t think they believe in God at all. What they do believe in is “Heavenly Father” a male human who worked his way up to ‘being a god’.

Apparently mormons have a lot of Gods, or “heavenly fathers”. One for each planet. Just regular Joes who ‘worked their ways up’.

This, to me comes uncomfortably close to atheism or perhaps New Age, where every person is her or his own God, and there is no God outside of us.

This is very different from the one God in the Holy Trinity which orthodox Christians place their faith in.

Correction of fact:

Mormons do not believe in 'one God for every planet." We believe that God, our Heavenly Father, created the entire universe, and is ‘the God of,’ all of it. Every planet, every star, every nebula, the whole shebang. He created it through His Son, Jesus Christ.

the “Mormons believe in one God for every planet” is incorrect.

Not that I expect to be believed here; after all, you probably got this from some anti-Mormon site, or anti-Mormon publication, or your nephew’s cousin’s babysitter’s pastor. Who must, of course, know more about what Mormons really believe than an actual Mormon would.

We are NOT, however, trinitarians, though our view of the trinity is a great deal closer to the Catholic view of it than the idea most Protestants seem to have, which looks a lot more like modalism.

 

[Stephen168]

And my post, while it ended with a ramble on my position regarding abortion, began with reason specifically about actions and policy, and is worth addressing. It did not deserve a one-line, dismissive, snipe.

No you did not reason, you rambled.

Please clarify.

While it is true that Mormon boys can smash mailboxes without assuming that the church OK’s smashing mailboxes.

Mormon boys smashed mailboxes therefore, I claim that the Mormon Church teaches that smashing mailboxes it OK.

 

[JamesCollins]

I need to make one thing clear. I think it is horrible that so many Mormons seem to dismiss their doctrine. I have seen some even claim Mormonism is true, but is not the one true church. I would rather they believed it whole heartedly than vacillate. It is bad for Mormonism when so many active Mormons are making claims the Book of Mormon is not historical, etc. To the extent they believe less than the LDS Church teaches they are also undermining Mormon beliefs on same sex marriage and other important moral issues. Stick to the real doctrine or get out.

 

[dianaiad]

No you did not reason, you rambled.

Mormon boys smashed mailboxes therefore, I claim that the Mormon Church teaches that smashing mailboxes it OK.

You didn’t read the first paragraphs of my post, obviously.

Mormon boys smashed mailboxes. What was done about this when the church found out?
DID the church find out?

Were the boys told to 'cut it out?"
Where they turned over to the cops?

Were they disciplined?

If they were not, is it because the church said 'It’s OK, boys, go ahead and smash the mailboxes?"

Or are you going to ignore the part of the post that addressed this?

 

[Stephen168]

Mormon boys smashed mailboxes.

Yes. Because they smashed mailboxes, and they were Mormon; the Mormon Church approved of there actions.

Or are you going to ignore the part of the post that addressed this?

Addressing it doesn’t explain it.

See, the problem is that if racism is a problem anywhere, then it is a problem everywhere.

Yes, clearing if part of the Mormon Church priesthood holders smashed mailboxes therefore the whole Mormon Church approves of their actions

 

[dianaiad]

Yes. Because they smashed mailboxes, and they were Mormon; the Mormon Church approved of there actions.

Addressing it doesn’t explain it.
Yes, clearing if part of the Mormon Church priesthood holders smashed mailboxes therefore the whole Mormon Church approves of their actions

I give up.

 

[kimg901]

Correction of fact:

Mormons do not believe in 'one God for every planet." We believe that God, our Heavenly Father, created the entire universe, and is ‘the God of,’ all of it. Every planet, every star, every nebula, the whole shebang. He created it through His Son, Jesus Christ.

the “Mormons believe in one God for every planet” is incorrect.

Not that I expect to be believed here; after all, you probably got this from some anti-Mormon site, or anti-Mormon publication, or your nephew’s cousin’s babysitter’s pastor. Who must, of course, know more about what Mormons really believe than an actual Mormon would.

We are NOT, however, trinitarians, though our view of the trinity is a great deal closer to the Catholic view of it than the idea most Protestants seem to have, which looks a lot more like modalism.

So do you believe joe smith became a god as well as all the other prophets that have died? Do you believe that an lds man can become a god? Do you believe that your god was once a man on earth that gained his godliness? Its in your doctrine. And if you do believe god was once a man on earth how did he make earth? See where im going with this? I don’t know how any of us here are giving you some anti-Mormon hate when its in your own doctrine. Unless of course you are picking what you want to believe and throwing out the rest that doesn’t suite you.

 

[iepuras]

Correction of fact:

Mormons do not believe in 'one God for every planet." We believe that God, our Heavenly Father, created the entire universe, and is ‘the God of,’ all of it. Every planet, every star, every nebula, the whole shebang. He created it through His Son, Jesus Christ.

the “Mormons believe in one God for every planet” is incorrect.

Not that I expect to be believed here; after all, you probably got this from some anti-Mormon site, or anti-Mormon publication, or your nephew’s cousin’s babysitter’s pastor. Who must, of course, know more about what Mormons really believe than an actual Mormon would.

We are NOT, however, trinitarians, though our view of the trinity is a great deal closer to the Catholic view of it than the idea most Protestants seem to have, which looks a lot more like modalism.

While, technically you are correct that Mormons do officially define their beliefs in exaltation as “one God for every planet”, such a belief can be held. Tod bad, you didn’t explain the doctrine more completely. What follows is what I was taught in the LDS church - in Sunday School, early morning seminary, and religion classes at BYU. I never got this from an “anti-Mormon” website.

When a man is exalted in the celestial kingdom, he comes like Heavenly Father and lives the kind of life he does. Meaning, he has spirit children with his wife or wives. Eventually, he will organize a world for his spirit children to receive a mortal body. There will be a new savior for this world, etc. The specifics of this situation are not entirely defined. One can believe that each exalted man organizes a new planet for his spirit children only. Or he could go in on it with other exalted men.

I will also add that Heavenly Father doesn’t exactly “create” anything in the meaning that orthodox Christians understand the term create. Mormons believe that matter is co-eternal with Heavenly Father. When he “created” the earth, he merely organized existing matter. This is supported by Doctrine & Covenants 93 and the creation narrative in the temple endowment ceremony.

The “intelligences” of all people (precursor to our spirit bodies) are also co-eternal. It is not exactly defined if Heavenly Father’s intelligence is what is co-eternal with matter and intelligences or if Heavenly Father in his state as Heavenly Father complete with exalted physical body. When I was LDS, I believed the former and that his intelligence eventually evolved into his current state as an exalted man.

 

[dianaiad]

So do you believe joe smith became a god as well as all the other prophets that have died? Do you believe that an lds man can become a god? Do you believe that your god was once a man on earth that gained his godliness? Its in your doctrine. And if you do believe god was once a man on earth how did he make earth? See where im going with this? I don’t know how any of us here are giving you some anti-Mormon hate when its in your own doctrine. Unless of course you are picking what you want to believe and throwing out the rest that doesn’t suite you.

Yes, I see where you are going with this.

You are going no where near LDS doctrine, is where you are going with this.

I feel absolutely no need to defend positions I neither believe in nor hold. However, feel free to find out what our beliefs on this really are, and then I’ll engage in a conversation with you.

Why, you could even ask me, rather than tell me what I ‘really’ believe. What an intriguing, unusual idea!

 

[Nanotwerp]

I was thinking about converting to Mormonism once, until I realized how fallible it seems to be. LDS President has racist beliefs? President after that tries to blend in with the changing society and told the Mormons to ‘fuggedaboutit’.

 

[dianaiad]

While, technically you are correct that Mormons do officially define their beliefs in exaltation as “one God for every planet”, such a belief can be held. Tod bad, you didn’t explain the doctrine more completely. What follows is what I was taught in the LDS church - in Sunday School, early morning seminary, and religion classes at BYU. I never got this from an “anti-Mormon” website.

Please excuse me, while I correct a few things in your post. You will see the corrections in red.

When a man is exalted in the celestial kingdom, he comes like Heavenly Father and lives the kind of life he does. Meaning, he has spirit children with his wife or wives. Eventually, he will organize a world (that’s…universe) for his spirit children to receive a mortal body. There will be a new savior for this world, etc. The specifics of this situation are not entirely defined. (You seem to have defined them with a great deal more detail than anybody who taught you.) One can believe that each exalted man organizes a new planet for his spirit children only. Or he could go in on it with other exalted men.(I honestly have no idea where you got this. Do you have a reference?)

I will also add that Heavenly Father doesn’t exactly “create” anything in the meaning that orthodox Christians understand the term create. Mormons believe that matter is co-eternal with Heavenly Father. When he “created” the earth, he merely organized existing matter. This is supported by Doctrine & Covenants 93 and the creation narrative in the temple endowment ceremony. (yes, this you have right. We do not believe in creation ex nihilo).

The “intelligences” of all people (precursor to our spirit bodies) are also co-eternal. It is not exactly defined if Heavenly Father’s intelligence is what is co-eternal with matter and intelligences or if Heavenly Father in his state as Heavenly Father complete with exalted physical body. When I was LDS, I believed the former and that his intelligence eventually evolved into his current state as an exalted man.

OK…you are way into speculation land here, but I tend to go with the latter view. The problem is, we believe that God created the Universe. That’s…'everything that is." Anything OUTSIDE the universe is beyond our ken, understanding, and business. We can’t know anything about it.

In that we seem to have a great deal of theological company, come to think.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Correction of fact:

Mormons do not believe in 'one God for every planet." We believe that God, our Heavenly Father, created the entire universe, and is ‘the God of,’ all of it. Every planet, every star, every nebula, the whole shebang. He created it through His Son, Jesus Christ.

the “Mormons believe in one God for every planet” is incorrect.

Not that I expect to be believed here; after all, you probably got this from some anti-Mormon site, or anti-Mormon publication, or your nephew’s cousin’s babysitter’s pastor. Who must, of course, know more about what Mormons really believe than an actual Mormon would.

What you are choosing not to say is that the LDS church has always taught that there are multiple universes, and that each god organizes his own universe (as opposed to his own planet, just as Heavenly Father organized his.

That allows you (and the missionaries) to dissemble by saying that you believe that Heavenly Father created the entire universe, without ever pointing out that there are countless other universes that Heavenly Father did not create, but were in fact created by other gods, and that many of them were created long before Heavenly Father was ever born as a spirit child of his Heavenly Father and began the long journey to godhood.

You also didn’t mention that in LDS cosmology, matter is the only truly eternal thing - the only thing that owes its existence to no one and nothing, and that the Mormon gods use that matter to “organize” (not create) their universes. A Mormon god cannot create anything. You have merely re-defined the word “create” to mean “organize”, not create.

One reason why non-Mormons who know about Mormonism are so very negative towards it is this deception and dissembling. The missionaries have a very nuanced narrative that uses words the LDS church has re-defined in order to give the impression that Mormon beliefs are just like Christian beliefs. I have even had missionaries tell me that Mormonism teaches the trinity. It is only after the victim -er, investigator- has been baptized (or searches the web for information) that he begins to find out what the LDS really teach and believe.

Then he knows he has been lied to, and will never trust a Mormon again. I know i won’t.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[iepuras]

Please excuse me, while I correct a few things in your post. You will see the corrections in red.

OK…you are way into speculation land here, but I tend to go with the latter view. The problem is, we believe that God created the Universe. That’s…'everything that is." Anything OUTSIDE the universe is beyond our ken, understanding, and business. We can’t know anything about it.

In that we seem to have a great deal of theological company, come to think.

1. Then you need to tell Thomas Monson to update the endowment narrative because it says “world”. When I was LDS, it was not entirely clear if Heavenly Father is the god of this earth, galaxy or universe. I have heard all three options discussed.
2. How do you know what was taught to me in multiple wards and stakes in multiple states and in multiple BYU religion classes? Where you there? I actually used far less detail in my posts than I heard in a typical Gospel Doctrine lesson. Just because it is inconvenient for you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
3. Where did I get this? Why they are possible logical conclusions of actual LDS teachings. You would call them speculation. They were discussed in Gospel Doctrine classes and in my BYU religion classes. Of course, you may ask for names and references, and it would be highly inappropriate of me to publicly name the names of individuals or even wards or stakes. I see no need to publicly “out” someone. Especially since you probably won’t name who taught LDS doctrine to you. It is quite convenient for Mormons when they refuse to take their teachings to the next logical conclusion, and then accuse others of making stuff up or being “anti-Mormon” if someone else does.

 

[LivingWaters7]

We are NOT, however, trinitarians, though our view of the trinity is a great deal closer to the Catholic view of it than the idea most Protestants seem to have, which looks a lot more like modalism.

While many individual Protestants, and even Catholics, may or may not hold to more modalistic understandings of God, that is really irrelevant. All Protestant churches, whether Anglican, Lutheran, Evangelical, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc, officially hold to the orthodox Trinity doctrine, the same belief that Catholics hold to. The Mormon understanding of the Godhead is no more or less closer to the Catholic view than the actual/official Protestant view, individual misunderstandings of said actual doctrine (whether from Catholics or Protestants) aside.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Various LDS church manuals and magazines (as well as leaders) have specifically taught the idea that God the Father progressed to/achieved Godhood, and that we therefore follow what He did before us to become gods. This is not something “anti-Mormons” made up.

 

[dianaiad]

Various LDS church manuals and magazines (as well as leaders) have specifically taught the idea that God the Father progressed to/achieved Godhood, and that we therefore follow what He did before us to become gods. This is not something “anti-Mormons” made up.

No, it is not.

The problem is in what that MEANS. To the antis, it automatically means that “oh, there’s a God to rule every planet and every Mormon man can have his own planet with lots of eternally pregnant wives to pop out spirits to populate those planets”

…and we do not believe that, or anything close to that. Never have.

In fact, in that constantly criticized work, the “Pearl of Great Price,” which no matter what you think of it does set out some pretty solid, standard doctrine for us, we are told that God created ‘worlds without number,’ i.e., the universe, and that He is in charge of all of it.

Doesn’t leave any room for planetary godlets, does it?

So do we believe that we are, quite literally, the children of God…Who is our Father in Heaven, and that yes, we can grow up and be just like Him?

Absolutely.

That’s even biblical.

We may not know, at this point, what that means to us in the long run, but we do know what it does NOT mean, that is, we will be gods over our own individual planets.

…and before you start criticizing us for not having all the answers, please tell me: what is heaven going to be like, exactly, in your own beliefs? What will you be doing for all eternity?

WHY did God create you, anyway?

Do you know everything, have the answers to all your questions, or any question that anybody might want to ask you?

Do you need to?

 

[Theo520]

Various LDS church manuals and magazines (as well as leaders) have specifically taught the idea that God the Father progressed to/achieved Godhood, and that we therefore follow what He did before us to become gods. This is not something “anti-Mormons” made up.

It’s annoying to see Catholics deny their own faith just to ridicule another’s.
“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”

The sin is not in believing we might become God, it is in wanting to be like gods without really being like God.

CCC 398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279