Do most non-Catholics put up manger scenes at Christmas?

[AgnosTheist]

So?

so thats why protestants, jews & muslims all think that catholics are idolatrous.

 

[Lampo]

Why would you kneel in front of a statue of Christ and pray??

Out of reverence for what that statue represents.

And yes the RCC gives the worship of latria to images of Christ and venerates the statues of other figures.

The passage from the Council of Trent you provided does not say that we are to worship the statue. The burden of proof is on you I believe to show that we are to worship statues. Also, your quote from St. Thomas Aquinas isn’t an official Church document. I am going to look into that quote though. Thank you.

You may say it’s not worshipping the statue but it would be easy for someone to think that especially when you see the Pope walk in front of the big statue of Mary and literally bow down to it.

Well, if a person sees that and cares to find out if Catholics do actually worship statues they will discover that we don’t.

According to the second commandment that is idolatry.

No, according to your fallible interpretation of Scripture you *think *it is idolatry.

 

[Lampo]

So it not OK to bow down to a nativity scene.

It’s not okay only if you are worshiping the actual nativity scene.

 

[Lampo]

so thats why protestants, jews & muslims all think that catholics are idolatrous.

And with some investigation on their part they will come to realize that we don’t.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And with some investigation on their part they will come to realize that we don’t.

ofcourse.

but the point of this thread is: are non-catholics doing what they accuse catholics of? the answer is simply NO. their mangers are for decorative purposes only. not for praying.

 

[Lampo]

ofcourse.

but the point of this thread is: are non-catholics doing what they accuse catholics of? the answer is simply NO.

According to you, maybe. According to you they are putting up the nativity scene for decoration. Why a nativity scene then? I argue because of what it represents. When they look at the nativity scene it reminds them of the birth of Jesus. It might cause them to reflect, meditate, contemplate, etc. on that part of Jesus’ life. Like “kalt” said, that is also called praying.

 

[NDfan]

Out of reverence for what that statue represents.

Which can be viewed as idolatry or worship. Here’s the definition of veneration:

To solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere. So the RCC is trying to re-define what venerate means but in the end it still means worship.

The passage from the Council of Trent you provided does not say that we are to worship the statue. The burden of proof is on you I believe to show that we are to worship statues. Also, your quote from St. Thomas Aquinas isn’t an official Church document. I am going to look into that quote though. Thank you.

I’m not implying it does. I was making the point for veneration. People view veneration as being idolatry/worship. And I’m not out to prove anything as only GOD knows what’s in your heart. As far as Aquinas I know he doesn’t represent “official” church doctrine but Roman Catholics sure do love to quote the ECFs when it supports their claims. Just showing you an example.

Well, if a person sees that and cares to find out if Catholics do actually worship statues they will discover that we don’t.

Lampo my brother you can say that you don’t but again people may easily view that you do. Again GOD is the only one that knows for sure so that’s all you have to worry about. Not what I think or anyone else.

No, according to your fallible interpretation of Scripture you *think *it is idolatry.

It’s not about fallible interpretation of scripture. Let’s not start that endless debate again. Scripure is pretty straight-forward on this matter. It’s about the intent of your action to the statue. You can call it veneration all you want. But when someone sees you bowing down to a statue then it will be viewed as idolatry. And I will repeat again the only one you should be concerned about is how GOD views it.

PEACE

 

[AgnosTheist]

I argue because of what it represents. When they look at the nativity scene it reminds them of the birth of Jesus. It might cause them to reflect, meditate, contemplate, etc. on that part of Jesus’ life. Like “kalt” said, that is also called praying.

that is true. but still, those idols dont serve as the focus of their prayers. thats the difference. they dont bow to the nativity scene.

 

[Lampo]

It’s not about fallible interpretation of scripture. Let’s not start that endless debate again. Scripure is pretty straight-forward on this matter. It’s about the intent of your action to the statue. You can call it veneration all you want. But when someone sees you bowing down to a statue then it will be viewed as idolatry. And I will repeat again the only one you should be concerned about is how GOD views it.

Actually, it is *all *about interpretation of Scripture. What else are you gleaning from that Catholics worship statues? Scripture and your fallible interpretation of it. I like your last sentence and I totally agree with it. When Catholics pray in front of statues we are not doing it for the direct benefit of anyone other than God. It might have indirect benefits though. Like I said, it someone sees a Catholic bowing down and praying in front of a Crucifix and then decides to investigate for themselves on whether we actually worship statues, they will realize that we do not.

 

[NDfan]

According to you, maybe. According to you they are putting up the nativity scene for decoration. Why a nativity scene then? I argue because of what it represents. When they look at the nativity scene it reminds them of the birth of Jesus. It might cause them to reflect, meditate, contemplate, etc. on that part of Jesus’ life. Like “kalt” said, that is also called praying.

Lampo here is the problem with your statement. When we partake in the Eucharist Christ told us to do this in remembrance of ME. The greek word there being Amnesis which literally means to bring the past to the present. So Christ not only wanted us to see HIS body and blood in the bread and wine, He wanted us to recall HIS sacrifice on the cross. It’s believed that Ignatius would meditate for hours after partaking in the Lord’s supper. So the supper was a trigger for him to recall the sacrifice that Christ made.

Same with the nativity. If it triggers someone to meditate on the birth of Christ that is not like praying to the nativity. That’s called reflecting which also is not praying. But if seeing the nativity triggered someone to pray to GOD then so what. That doesn’t mean they are praying to the nativity scene or worshipping it.

Likewise if seeing a statue of Paul causes you to reflect on the work he did in spreading the Gospel, that doesn’t mean you worship the statue. The statue is a trigger and a very good one. The early church used statues and stained glass for teaching but the eastern leaders wanted to destroy them out of fear they were violating the second commandment.

PEACE

 

[Lampo]

Lampo here is the problem with your statement. When we partake in the Eucharist Christ told us to do this in remembrance of ME. The greek word there being Amnesis which literally means to bring the past to the present. So Christ not only wanted us to see HIS body and blood in the bread and wine, He wanted us to recall HIS sacrifice on the cross. It’s believed that Ignatius would meditate for hours after partaking in the Lord’s supper. So the supper was a trigger for him to recall the sacrifice that Christ made.

Same with the nativity. If it triggers someone to meditate on the birth of Christ that is not like praying to the nativity. That’s called reflecting which also is not praying. But if seeing the nativity triggered someone to pray to GOD then so what. That doesn’t mean they are praying to the nativity scene or worshipping it.

Likewise if seeing a statue of Paul causes you to reflect on the work he did in spreading the Gospel, that doesn’t mean you worship the statue. The statue is a trigger and a very good one. The early church used statues and stained glass for teaching but the eastern leaders wanted to destroy them out of fear they were violating the second commandment.

PEACE

I’m beginning to think you and the Catholic Church are on the same page with this. I’m not sure I agree with your view on prayer however.

 

[NDfan]

Actually, it is *all *about interpretation of Scripture. What else are you gleaning from that Catholics worship statues? Scripture and your fallible interpretation of it. I like your last sentence and I totally agree with it. When Catholics pray in front of statues we are not doing it for the direct benefit of anyone other than God. It might have indirect benefits though. Like I said, it someone sees a Catholic bowing down and praying in front of a Crucifix and then decides to investigate for themselves on whether we actually worship statues, they will realize that we do not.

Again my brother interpretation of the second commandment is straight forward. We both know we’re not supposed to worship idols like the infamous golden calf. But I’m not gleaning that you worship statues based on the second commandment. I’m saying that it can be viewed as a violation of the second commandment by those who don’t know your intent.

Like I keep saying, GOD is the only one you should care about as HE and HE alone knows what’s in your heart. I’m quite sure your intentions are pure and would never accuse you of violating the second commandment. I’m saying how it may be viewed.

So getting back to your original question. I know many Protestants who put out nativity scenes for Christmas because of what it represents. But they don’t bow down to them or pray to them in worship. That doesn’t mean that Roman Catholics do either. It’s a simple response to your question.

PEACE

 

[NDfan]

I’m beginning to think you and the Catholic Church are on the same page with this. I’m not sure I agree with your view on prayer however.

I think you will find I’m on the same page with my bretheran in the RCC more than you may think

Can you clarify for me what you mean about prayer?

Thanks

PEACE

 

[AgnosTheist]

The early church used statues and stained glass for teaching but the eastern leaders wanted to destroy them out of fear they were violating the second commandment.

When I was a catholic kid I thought the statue of Jesus was God himself. And worshipped it accordingly. I wonder if thats what some adult catholics think…those who line up to wipe their napkins on the foot of a statue and goes home treating that piece of cloth as if it had become holy.

 

[Lampo]

Again my brother interpretation of the second commandment is straight forward. We both know we’re not supposed to worship idols like the infamous golden calf. But I’m not gleaning that you worship statues based on the second commandment. I’m saying that it can be viewed as a violation of the second commandment by those who don’t know your intent.

Like I keep saying, GOD is the only one you should care about as HE and HE alone knows what’s in your heart. I’m quite sure your intentions are pure and would never accuse you of violating the second commandment. I’m saying how it may be viewed.

So getting back to your original question. I know many Protestants who put out nativity scenes for Christmas because of what it represents. But they don’t bow down to them or pray to them in worship. That doesn’t mean that Roman Catholics do either. It’s a simple response to your question.

PEACE

Sounds good to me Sir. You know, to be honest I have several crosses, crucifixes, statues in my house that I’ve never bowed down in front of. I see them all of the time and for a moment I’m reminded of what they represent.

 

[Inman]

We had manger scenes when we were kids. I converted to the Catholic Church, when I was much older. I don’t currently have a manger scene, although it would be nice to have one.

One difference I have noticed, at least among wife’s family (who are all cradle catholics), is that they don’t put baby Jesus in the manger scene until Christmas. They don’t understand why people would place Jesus in the scene before then.

Is this a catholic tradition generally or something unique to my in-laws. I guess I see the logic, but if you follow that logic, shouldn’t the manger be completely empty until Christmas Eve or at most only have the animals until then?

 

[Lampo]

Can you clarify for me what you mean about prayer?

Thanks

PEACE

My pleasure. Basically, I believe what the Catholic Church says about prayer. Wow! There is a boatload on prayer in the Catechism. I’ll just provide the link and you can type in “prayer” or “Christian prayer” and read all that comes up. CCC
I like this definition: “Prayer - The raising of the heart and mind to God.” I found that on New Advent and there is much more on prayer there. Here is that link.

 

[Lampo]

We had manger scenes when we were kids. I converted to the Catholic Church, when I was much older. I don’t currently have a manger scene, although it would be nice to have one.

One difference I have noticed, at least among wife’s family (who are all cradle catholics), is that they don’t put baby Jesus in the manger scene until Christmas. They don’t understand why people would place Jesus in the scene before then.

Is this a catholic tradition generally or something unique to my in-laws. I guess I see the logic, but if you follow that logic, shouldn’t the manger be completely empty until Christmas Eve or at most only have the animals until then?

It’s not unique to your in-laws. We do it too with some of our manger scenes. I only discovered this practice in that past couple of years. I forget where I read it.

 

[Lampo]

Also this is from Thomas Aquinas:

“[The Cross] is worshiped with the same adoration as Christ, viz. the adoration of latria.” And again, “we give the adoration of latria to the image of Christ” (Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 25).

Remember that latria is the highest kind of worship reserved for GOD only. So Aquinas is saying that images of Christ, whether pictures or statues are to receive latria worship.

PEACE

All of Summa Theologica can be found here.
The more I’m reading about Aquinas and his take on idolatry, in no way does he contradict Catholic teaching. And of course Catholic teaching does not contradict Scripture. This is interesting. Thanks again. You and I have had several exchanges and it seems through them all I gain more knowledge of the Catholic faith while strengthening it as well.

 

[Lampo]

When I was a catholic kid I thought the statue of Jesus was God himself.

My 2 1/2 year old son calls the priest Jesus. I think he might think the priest is Jesus. In fact, when the priest came to our house once, my son pointed at him and said, “Jesus.” The priest explained to him that he was not Jesus.

And worshipped it accordingly.

I wonder if thats what some adult catholics think…those who line up to wipe their napkins on the foot of a statue and goes home treating that piece of cloth as if it had become holy.
Maybe. I’m not sure.