Do most non-Catholics put up manger scenes at Christmas?

[elvisman]

Elvis I never said that Catholics pray to statues. You’re re-stating the point I made to Lampo in that I thought he made an unfair accusation to his Father-in-law. But Roman Catholics do venerate statues and apply latria worship to images of Christ.

PEACE

Gotta disagree with you there, my friend.
Veneration of images and relics is merely applying honor or reverence. Latria - or worship - is reserved for God only, not images or statues of him.

Also, if you weren’t implying that Catholics worship statues - who were you referring to?

 

[AgnosTheist]

My 2 1/2 year old son calls the priest Jesus. I think he might think the priest is Jesus. In fact, when the priest came to our house once, my son pointed at him and said, “Jesus.” The priest explained to him that he was not Jesus.

Just chalk that up to ignorance on your part at that point in your life.

yes it was ignorance. i was that ignorant up until grade 3 when i started to figure things out on my own (nobody explained to me that the statues are not god).

 

[Lampo]

yes it was ignorance. i was that ignorant up until grade 3 when i started to figure things out on my own (nobody explained to me that the statues are not god).

LOL…awesome!

 

[Sanctus]

Lampo here is a quote from the council of trent on icons/statues etc.

because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by means of the images which we kiss and before which we uncover the head and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ and venerate the saints whose likeness they bear” (Council of Trent, Session 25, On the Invocation, Veneration, Relics of Saints, and Sacred Images.)

Also this is from Thomas Aquinas:

“[The Cross] is worshiped with the same adoration as Christ, viz. the adoration of latria.” And again, “we give the adoration of latria to the image of Christ” (Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 25).

Remember that latria is the highest kind of worship reserved for GOD only. So Aquinas is saying that images of Christ, whether pictures or statues are to receive latria worship.

PEACE

Which part of the question are you referring to?

Summa Tertia Pars Q25

Objection 1. It would seem that Christ’s cross should not be worshiped with the adoration of “latria.” For no dutiful son honors that which dishonors his father, as the scourge with which he was scourged, or the gibbet on which he was hanged; rather does he abhor it. Now Christ underwent the most shameful death on the cross; according to Wisdom 2:20: “Let us condemn Him to a most shameful death.” Therefore we should not venerate the cross but rather we should abhor it.

Objection 2. Further, Christ’s humanity is worshiped with the adoration of “latria,” inasmuch as it is united to the Son of God in Person. But this cannot be said of the cross. Therefore Christ’s cross should not be worshiped with the adoration of “latria.”

Objection 3. Further, as Christ’s cross was the instrument of His passion and death, so were also many other things, for instance, the nails, the crown, the lance; yet to these we do not show the worship of “latria.” It seems, therefore, that Christ’s cross should not be worshiped with the adoration of “latria.”

On the contrary, We show the worship of “latria” to that in which we place our hope of salvation. But we place our hope in Christ’s cross, for the Church sings:

“Dear Cross, best hope o’er all beside,
That cheers the solemn passion-tide:
Give to the just increase of grace,
Give to each contrite sinner peace.”
[Hymn Vexilla Regis: translation of Father Aylward, O.P.]
Therefore Christ’s cross should be worshiped with the adoration of “latria.”

I answer that, As stated above (Article 3), honor or reverence is due to a rational creature only; while to an insensible creature, no honor or reverence is due save by reason of a rational nature. And this in two ways. First, inasmuch as it represents a rational nature: secondly, inasmuch as it is united to it in any way whatsoever. In the first way men are wont to venerate the king’s image; in the second way, his robe. And both are venerated by men with the same veneration as they show to the king. If, therefore, we speak of the cross itself on which Christ was crucified, it is to be venerated by us in both ways–namely, in one way in so far as it represents to us the figure of Christ extended thereon; in the other way, from its contact with the limbs of Christ, and from its being saturated with His blood. Wherefore in each way it is worshiped with the same adoration as Christ, viz. the adoration of “latria.” And for this reason also we speak to the cross and pray to it, as to the Crucified Himself. But if we speak of the effigy of Christ’s cross in any other material whatever–for instance, in stone or wood, silver or gold–thus we venerate the cross merely as Christ’s image, which we worship with the adoration of “latria,” as stated above (Article 3).

Reply to Objection 1. If in Christ’s cross we consider the point of view and intention of those who did not believe in Him, it will appear as His shame: but if we consider its effect, which is our salvation, it will appear as endowed with Divine power, by which it triumphed over the enemy, according to Colossians 2:14-15: “He hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross, and despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently, in open show, triumphing over them in Himself.” Wherefore the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 1:18): “The Word of the cross to them indeed that perish is foolishness; but to them that are saved–that is, to us–it is the power of God.”

Reply to Objection 2. Although Christ’s cross was not united to the Word of God in Person, yet it was united to Him in some other way, viz. by representation and contact. And for this sole reason reverence is shown to it.

Reply to Objection 3. By reason of the contact of Christ’s limbs we worship not only the cross, but all that belongs to Christ. Wherefore Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iv, 11): “The precious wood, as having been sanctified by the contact of His holy body and blood, should be meetly worshiped; as also His nails, His lance, and His sacred dwelling-places, such as the manger, the cave and so forth.” Yet these very things do not represent Christ’s image as the cross does, which is called “the Sign of the Son of Man” that “will appear in heaven,” as it is written (Matthew 24:30). Wherefore the angel said to the women (Mark 16:6): “You seek Jesus of Nazareth, Who was crucified”: he said not “pierced,” but “crucified.” For this reason we worship the image of Christ’s cross in any material, but not the image of the nails or of any such thing.

St. Thomas Aquinas is one of the most misquoted saints because people generally are unfamiliar with how the Summa is written.

 

[kalt]

that is true. but still, those idols dont serve as the focus of their prayers. thats the difference. they dont bow to the nativity scene.

And since you know better, you know that there is no difference between the two.

Catholics don’t focus on the statue and pray to it.

 

[kalt]

When I was a catholic kid I thought the statue of Jesus was God himself. And worshipped it accordingly. I wonder if thats what some adult catholics think…those who line up to wipe their napkins on the foot of a statue and goes home treating that piece of cloth as if it had become holy.

You wonder if adult Catholics think like one particularly stupid kid?

How in the world did you come to believe that a hunk of plaster, plastic, or wood was God?

Did you also believe that there were tiny people in your TV?

 

[kalt]

We had manger scenes when we were kids. I converted to the Catholic Church, when I was much older. I don’t currently have a manger scene, although it would be nice to have one.

One difference I have noticed, at least among wife’s family (who are all cradle catholics), is that they don’t put baby Jesus in the manger scene until Christmas. They don’t understand why people would place Jesus in the scene before then.

Is this a catholic tradition generally or something unique to my in-laws. I guess I see the logic, but if you follow that logic, shouldn’t the manger be completely empty until Christmas Eve or at most only have the animals until then?

The manger we had as kids was a one-piece thing. All of the figures are glued to the stable.

Is adding Jesus on Xmas a recent thing? It was a Protestant that told me about that tradition. I’d never known Catholics to do it.

My manger is about 50 years old, so I’m thinking that the custom isn’t very old, or at least it wasn’t universal.

I used to love to sit and look at the nativity in the days just before Xmas. But I never thought that the baby was really Jesus.

 

[lak611]

Do any of you kneel to pray in front of your nativity scene? (inside our out?)

I am a Catholic who was raised in a Catholic home. My family always put up a nativity scene under the Christmas tree. We never knelt to pray in front of our nativity scene.

 

[lak611]

Well just because you don’t know someone who has done that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. And again we’re not supposed to bow down to anything except GOD. So it not OK to bow down to a nativity scene.

PEACE

I was raised in a Catholic home and am Catholic. We did not bow down to our nativity scene. I do not know anyone who did, and I have Catholic and Protestant family members who all have nativity scenes in their homes.

 

[lak611]

ofcourse.

the answer is simply NO. their mangers are for decorative purposes only. not for praying.

Exactly! We use the nativity scene as a reminder of what Christmas is about. It is not something we use for praying.

 

[Lampo]

Exactly! We use the nativity scene as a reminder of what Christmas is about. It is not something we use for praying.

That’s true. The Nativity scene does serve some of the same purpose as religious statues, art, jewelry, etc. They all cause us to reflect on what they represent. I believe that is a form of prayer.

 

[kalt]

Well just because you don’t know someone who has done that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. And again we’re not supposed to bow down to anything except GOD. So it not OK to bow down to a nativity scene.

PEACE

I don’t know anyone who kneels and prays in front of their nativity scene. And I’ve never seen anyone do it. As I said, there’s nothing wrong in doing it. I’ve just never seen it.

People here are making it sound like that practice is common. I don’t think it is.

But I nver siad that it hasn’t happened.

This is the 2nd time in this thread that you’ve read a post incorrectly. Please read carefully before you accuse people of saying something.

 

[Huguenot]

If yes, I wonder if those same non-Catholics accuse Catholics of idolatry/iconoclasm. I ask this because this past Christmas my father-in-law mentioned that Lutherans don’t pray to icons or something of that sort. He is a Lutheran. I thought about saying, “You mean like setting up the manger scene you gave me for my birthday?”, which his wife did. But I didn’t.

Personally I don’t, but it is simply because I live alone and usually at Christmas I’m with my family ; since they are atheists it wouldn’t mean anything to them either, and I don’t feel the need to have one to remember Christ’s birth …
But some people in my church have some at home , others don’t, it seems to be quite a “personal” matter …
I wouldn’t say it is idolatry : it would be if somebody ( Catholic or Protestant ) prayed to the small statues but as far as I know nobody does ; if somebody thinks that it “protects” their house, I would rather call it superstition than idolatry, and it can apply both to some Catholics or to some Protestants …

Idolatry and iconoclasm are not the same things at all : iconoclasts don’t want pictures, images, statues and so on, and they even destroyed some, I don’t remember exactly in which century, around the 7th or 8th century, when there was this quarrel …about statues, images and so on ; in France, during the “wars of religion” ( 16th century ) some Huguenots also destroyed the statues, crucifixes in Catholic churches … ( I wouldn’t like having some in MY church, but I think these Huguenots were wrong )…when refering to this in the context of the religious wars in France, historians speak of “Huguenot iconoclasm” …

 

[Lampo]

Personally I don’t, but it is simply because I live alone and usually at Christmas I’m with my family ; since they are atheists it wouldn’t mean anything to them either, and I don’t feel the need to have one to remember Christ’s birth …
But some people in my church have some at home , others don’t, it seems to be quite a “personal” matter …
I wouldn’t say it is idolatry : it would be if somebody ( Catholic or Protestant ) prayed to the small statues but as far as I know nobody does ; if somebody thinks that it “protects” their house, I would rather call it superstition than idolatry, and it can apply both to some Catholics or to some Protestants …

Idolatry and iconoclasm are not the same things at all : iconoclasts don’t want pictures, images, statues and so on, and they even destroyed some, I don’t remember exactly in which century, around the 7th or 8th century, when there was this quarrel …about statues, images and so on ; in France, during the “wars of religion” ( 16th century ) some Huguenots also destroyed the statues, crucifixes in Catholic churches … ( I wouldn’t like having some in MY church, but I think these Huguenots were wrong )…when refering to this in the context of the religious wars in France, historians speak of “Huguenot iconoclasm” …

Oh, okay. Thanks. I just see a strong similarity between setting up a nativity scene, displaying a statue of the Blessed Mother, hanging a rosary around the rear view mirror, hanging a Cross or Crucifix on the wall, wearing a Crucifix pendant around one’s neck, etc., etc. Actually, I don’t see any difference at all of what I just mentioned.

 

[RobinSebas]

If yes, I wonder if those same non-Catholics accuse Catholics of idolatry/iconoclasm. I ask this because this past Christmas my father-in-law mentioned that Lutherans don’t pray to icons or something of that sort. He is a Lutheran. I thought about saying, “You mean like setting up the manger scene you gave me for my birthday?”, which his wife did. But I didn’t.

 

[Huguenot]

Oh, okay. Thanks. I just see a strong similarity between setting up a nativity scene, displaying a statue of the Blessed Mother, hanging a rosary around the rear view mirror, hanging a Cross or Crucifix on the wall, wearing a Crucifix pendant around one’s neck, etc., etc. Actually, I don’t see any difference at all of what I just mentioned.

For me what is important is WHY the person displays a nativity scene or any of the other things you mention : if these things are REMINDERS, it doesn’t bother me and I see nothing “wrong” with it ( but for the rosary or a statue of Mary–alone, not in a nativity scene – it can also mean that the person prays not only to God, but also to Mary, or other “saints”, and I don’t agree with the fact of doing so ; but whether there are representations of them or not doesn’t change the “problem” for me … )
But what bothers me is the “magical” power some people give to these representations, for instance in Paris I went to a chapel “rue du Bac”, I was just passing by and since I know it is a place of Catholic pilgrimage I thought I would have a look … they sell medals there, called “miraculous medals”, maybe you have seen some ; probably some people wear them as reminders ( of the “apparitions of Mary” there, sorry for the inverted commas, I don’t believe in Marian apparitions … ), but for others it is clearly superstitious, they think that the mere fact of wearing this medal blesses and protects them … the same being true for other medals, especially if they have been “blessed” by a priest …
To avoid any confusion I don’t wear any medals at all, not even the “Huguenot cross” that some other French Protestants wear …
On the blog of a Protestant sociologist I saw the mention of an “interesting” Protestant superstition : he said that in the 19th century, to heal their sick, some Protestants … put a Bible under their pillows ; well for me it is superstitious too … I could even say it is bibliolatry …
That shows that all of us, Protestants or Catholics, have to be very careful about superstition, it seems to pop up even where we don’t expect it …
As I have said I am a in “special” case since I come from an atheist background ; I am Protestant but I think that if I were a Catholic I wouldn’t have a nativity scene at home either exactly for the reasons I mentioned above : first I 'm never at home at this period, second for the other members of my family it wouldn’t mean anything, third … I don’t feel the need to have one to remember Christ’s birth … According to what I know it is not compulsory for Catholics to have one …

 

[Huguenot]

The manger we had as kids was a one-piece thing. All of the figures are glued to the stable.

Is adding Jesus on Xmas a recent thing? It was a Protestant that told me about that tradition. I’d never known Catholics to do it.

My manger is about 50 years old, so I’m thinking that the custom isn’t very old, or at least it wasn’t universal.

I used to love to sit and look at the nativity in the days just before Xmas. But I never thought that the baby was really Jesus.

I think placing Jesus in the nativity scene is common at least in some countries ; it is the case in French Catholic churches too, not only in people’s homes …
Last Christ I was in Paris, I visited several Catholic churches on December 24th, “Jesus” wasn’t in the nativity scenes … but on the 25th and 26th I went back to the same churches, “he” had been added, I suppose during the midnight Mass or just before … ( or just after … )
A lot of Catholics do the same in their homes ; for Protestants, those who have nativity scenes ( we don’t all have one … ), they are “complete” right from the start, I mean, when they do them, they put Jesus in it on the day they do their nativity scene, they don’t wait until December the 25th …

I don’t know where this difference comes from, I’ve just noticed it …
In most Protestant churches there aren’t nativity scenes …

Of course since I’m French what I’ve just said is OK for FRENCH Catholics and Protestants, maybe it is different in the United States …

 

[Huguenot]

It’s not okay only if you are worshiping the actual nativity scene.

Yes I agree with you, but I don’t know any Catholic who does …

 

[Huguenot]

Lampo here is a quote from the council of trent on icons/statues etc.

because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by means of the images which we kiss and before which we uncover the head and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ and venerate the saints whose likeness they bear” (Council of Trent, Session 25, On the Invocation, Veneration, Relics of Saints, and Sacred Images.)

Also this is from Thomas Aquinas:

“[The Cross] is worshiped with the same adoration as Christ, viz. the adoration of latria.” And again, “we give the adoration of latria to the image of Christ” (Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 25).

Remember that latria is the highest kind of worship reserved for GOD only. So Aquinas is saying that images of Christ, whether pictures or statues are to receive latria worship.

PEACE

Then it would be idolatry ; I had already read these texts, but I’m not sure that it is what the Catholic church teaches now …
If it is, well a lot of Catholics don’t do that … for the ones I know, all these things are reminders, symbols, and they don’t “venerate” them …