Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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GaryTaylor said:
Yes we been over it 40 times a stretch of the imagination and non binding and per a Cardinal. Believe as you wish.
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Not true.

The Cardinal says no such thing—in fact, he says the opposite.

You don’t realize it, even after I pointed it out to you, but you’re taking the Cardinal’s words about a declaration and applying it to the teachings of a dogmatic constitution. The Cardinal’s whole point is that a dogmatic constitution is binding.

You might want to get your terms straight before you try to use them to prove a point in such a way that only proves you to be wrong.

16…In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…

Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church

Approved by a vote of the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Church, assembled in Ecumenical Council (2,151 affirmative and 5 negative) and solemnly promulgated by the Supreme Pontiff Paul VI on 21 November 1964

Note what the good Cardinal has to say about dogmatic constitutions:

“There is a huge difference between a great constitution,” like the Vatican II constitutions on the church, the liturgy and divine revelation, “and simple declarations,” like the Vatican II declarations on Christian education and the mass media.

Of course, the cardinal said, all the council’s documents, including the two declarations, “must be taken seriously as expressions of the living magisterium,” the official teaching of the church, which has developed even further under the pontificates of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202076.htm
 
One last article I think provides a good explanation says in part:
So, what does it mean to say that Muslims adore the one God along with us—to say, as can be reasonably drawn from these statements, that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics? We can consider the idea in several senses.
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I think we can say with confidence that any monotheist who calls out to the Lord is heard by the Lord, whether it’s a Muslim, a pagan philosopher seeking the God of reason, or a Native American petitioning the Great Spirit. As Lumen Gentium 16 continues, God is not “far distant from those who in shadows and images seek [him].”
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Likewise I think we’re on solid ground in saying that the subjective intention of Muslims is to worship the one God—moreover, the one God from the line of Abrahamic revelation. Whether or not their version of that revelation is authentic or correct, that’s what they “profess to hold” to. Furthermore, some of the attributes of the God to whom they address their worship are comparable to the Christian God’s: He is one, merciful, omnipotent, and the judge of the world.
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Just as clearly, though, we cannot say that the God in whom Muslims profess to believe is theologically identical to the Christian God. For the most obvious example, their God is a “lonely God,” as Chesterton put it, whereas ours is a Trinity of persons. Beyond that difference, in the divine economy our Gods are also quite different: most pointedly in that ours took human nature to himself and dwelt among us on earth, whereas the Muslim God remains pure transcendence. To Muslims the idea of an incarnation is blasphemy.
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And so perhaps we can distinguish between worship of God and belief in him, the former being more about the intent of the worshiper and the latter being more about the object of belief himself. Thus could Gerhard Müller, bishop emeritus of Regensburg and since last year the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, assert in 2007 that Muslims and Christians “do not believe in the same God,” and yet not contradict any magisterial teaching.
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FrDavid96 said:
Not true.

The Cardinal says no such thing—in fact, he says the opposite.

You don’t realize it, even after I pointed it out to you, but you’re taking the Cardinal’s words about a declaration and applying it to the teachings of a dogmatic constitution. The Cardinal’s whole point is that a dogmatic constitution is binding.

You might want to get your terms straight before you try to use them to prove a point in such a way that only proves you to be wrong.

16…In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…

Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church

Approved by a vote of the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Church, assembled in Ecumenical Council (2,151 affirmative and 5 negative) and solemnly promulgated by the Supreme Pontiff Paul VI on 21 November 1964

Note what the good Cardinal has to say about dogmatic constitutions:

“There is a huge difference between a great constitution,” like the Vatican II constitutions on the church, the liturgy and divine revelation, “and simple declarations,” like the Vatican II declarations on Christian education and the mass media.

Of course, the cardinal said, all the council’s documents, including the two declarations, “must be taken seriously as expressions of the living magisterium,” the official teaching of the church, which has developed even further under the pontificates of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202076.htm
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Thanks Father good night. Did you want to say a pray with us before I go? Now I do believe I asked you earlier since we are talking about praying here. 👍
 
GaryTaylor said:
I haven’t reached this level of growth. My humble apology. How you doing with this, with the muslims specifically?
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How am I doing with understanding the Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

I guess I look at it in the same way as I do Baptists and Catholics worshipping the same Christ.

Both have an incomplete understanding. (One rejects the Trinity. One rejects the Real Presence).

But just as I would never say that Baptists worship a completely different Christ, I would also never say that Muslims worship a completely different God.
 
GaryTaylor said:
:whacky:
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Being a father of six kids I am rather fluent in silly faces. If I understand you correctly, you read my comment and understand that we do need to be respectful of our clergy. I’m glad my message got across.👍
 
PRmerger said:
How am I doing with understanding the Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?
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No actually I asked how you were doing specifically with praying with muslims? You said this here “But we are certainly free to “pass” on that.” I took that to mean you never pass on the chance?
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Being a father of six kids I am rather fluent in silly faces. If I understand you correctly, you read my comment and understand that we do need to be respectful of our clergy. I’m glad my message got across.👍
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I have no idea what your talking about thus the icon. Nor does your message apply to me. But thanks again for the stellar contribution. :hypno::hypno:
 
GaryTaylor said:
No actually I asked how you were doing specifically with praying with muslims? You said this here “But we are certainly free to “pass” on that.” I took that to mean you never pass on the chance?
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I have never prayed with a Muslim, sadly.

I don’t think I’ve ever prayed with a Mormon, SDA, Bahai, Buddhist, Methodist, Assembly of God, JW, Iglesia ni Cristo, Southern Baptist (to my knowledge, anyway.) Tis a great sadness to me, indeed.

I have prayed with Jews, Lutherans, Episcopalians though! 👍
 
So is this a coincidence? I have another tab open on my laptop to* Evangelii Gaudium*, the Apostolic Exhortation by the glorious Pope Francis.

It is of great astonishment to me that after posting here on this thread, I returned to the tab to read these words from our Holy Father:

Our relationship with the followers of Islam has taken on great importance, since they are now significantly present in many traditionally Christian countries, where they can freely worship and become fully a part of society. We must never forget that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day”.[198] The sacred writings of Islam have retained some Christian teachings; Jesus and Mary receive profound veneration and it is admirable to see how Muslims both young and old, men and women, make time for daily prayer and faithfully take part in religious services. Many of them also have a deep conviction that their life, in its entirety, is from God and for God. They also acknowledge the need to respond to God with an ethical commitment and with mercy towards those most in need.

Coincidence?

I think not…
 
GaryTaylor said:
Wow same statement. So the other is not bonding and this one is?
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We are bound to give our religious assent to ALL truths of the Catholic faith, Gary.

Are you of the belief that Pope Francis’ teaching contradicts “the other one”?
 
PRmerger said:
We are bound to give our religious assent to ALL truths of the Catholic faith, Gary.

Are you of the belief that Pope Francis’ teaching contradicts “the other one”?
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I believe theres much controversy and obviously so do many others.

archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/card_brandmuller_not_all_vatican_ii_is_binding_5-24-2012.htm

“Strangely enough, the two most controversial documents” for the SSPX - those on religious freedom and on relations with non-Christians - “do not have a binding doctrinal content, so one can dialogue about them,” the cardinal said.

Here we have yet another prelate re-emphasizing the fact that the texts of the Second Vatican Council are not binding. Though these admissions would have been welcome even earlier, the growing number of such statements shows that perhaps the wind is starting to blow in a different direction. One can imagine how much differently the 1970’s and 1980’s may have been if one did not have to pretend that Vatican II contained the same doctrinal content as Nicea or Trent.

The 16 texts of Vatican II are titled in different ways. Here are a few examples among the most controversial texts: Some are called: Dogmatic Constitution (Lumen Gentium), Decree (Unitatis Redintegratio) Declaration (Dignitatis Humane; Nostra Aetate), and Pastoral Constitution (Gaudium et Spes.)Obviously they do not have the same value and the same level of importance. For instance, the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium speaks about the nature and definition of the Church whereas its equivalent, Gaudium et Spes, speaks of the Church in its relation with the present world.

This being said, clarity is still needed as to the clear theological category or qualification of each group of texts.
 
GaryTaylor said:
I believe theres much controversy and obviously so do many others.

archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/card_brandmuller_not_all_vatican_ii_is_binding_5-24-2012.htm

“Strangely enough, the two most controversial documents” for the SSPX - those on religious freedom and on relations with non-Christians - “do not have a binding doctrinal content, so one can dialogue about them,” the cardinal said.

Here we have yet another prelate re-emphasizing the fact that the texts of the Second Vatican Council are not binding. Though these admissions would have been welcome even earlier, the growing number of such statements shows that perhaps the wind is starting to blow in a different direction. One can imagine how much differently the 1970’s and 1980’s may have been if one did not have to pretend that Vatican II contained the same doctrinal content as Nicea or Trent.

The 16 texts of Vatican II are titled in different ways. Here are a few examples among the most controversial texts: Some are called: Dogmatic Constitution (Lumen Gentium), Decree (Unitatis Redintegratio) Declaration (Dignitatis Humane; Nostra Aetate), and Pastoral Constitution (Gaudium et Spes.)Obviously they do not have the same value and the same level of importance. For instance, the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium speaks about the nature and definition of the Church whereas its equivalent, Gaudium et Spes, speaks of the Church in its relation with the present world.

This being said, clarity is still needed as to the clear theological category or qualification of each group of texts.
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What? Gary! SSPX?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-cont...nt-be-serious.gif.pagespeed.ce.dXZdK1-Bak.gif
 
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