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CatholicSoxFan
Guest
Notice how the Quran misunderstands the Trinity. The Church has never and will never say that the Trinity is three gods.
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meltzerboy
New member
Jews, Christians, and Muslims, as members of Abrahamic religions, all worship the same G-d although they no doubt have different interpretations about the nature of G-d.
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zippity
Guest
And for me to believe that your god is anything like the my God, is nuts as well. Your god and mine are not the same. Only thing in common is the word god. Take care.
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Sam_777
Guest
They try to soften the interpretation of the word itself.
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betsybug354
Guest
And Jack Chick thinks Islam was founded by Catholics!
I’ve known many Muslims over the years, including my own husband of 27 years, and most of them would agree with the statement that Allah of the Qur’an is not the God Christians worship. But then they would claim that the “original” biblical revelations (the Taurat, Injeel, and Zabur as they call the Torah, Gospels, and Psalms) before they were supposedly corrupted by who knows whom did indeed describe the Allah of the Qur’an. The problem with that argument, of course, is that the burden of proof is on them since the Bible was complete and widespread throughout the churches of the known world, east and west, by the 6th century. And, the Quran testifies to the accuracy of the Christian scriptures as they existed at the time. So it seems like they have a problem there.
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tonyfish58
Guest
You can add Baha’is to that list as well
May the One God Bless us all - Regards Tony
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gmx2014
Guest
I am at least three persons in one. True story.
I am daughter.
I am sister.
I am mother.
I am self.
As I stand, I am a different person to my father as I am to my daughter. I am a different person to my son as I am to my landlord. Can you see how, in only one person, there are distinct aspects of my identity? Know thyself, know God.
We can look to God in the same way: God as the creator, God as the neighbor, God as lover, God as parent, God as healer, God as judge, God as landlord, God as spirit, God as mind, God as heart, God as soul, God as WORD, God as voice, God as image, God as light, God as mystery, God as revelation, God as infinite, endlessness…
To me, God is an endless conversation.
You know the faculties of mind, right? Imagination, logic, reason, psyche, memory, etc.
Some people actually worship logic. They do not consider the *whole *of the mind. Imagine a Mind of greatest perfection and harmony… whose name is on it?
I think, an important question: what is on the Heart of Muslims, if it isn’t Christ?
Imagine a Heart of greatest intelligence… whose name is on it? I do believe, the name is Christ.
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Contarini
Guest
Yes, but that isn’t the Trinity. The Trinity is an eternal relationship within God.
Edwin
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FrDavid96
Guest
, it says that Allah is the greatest of deceivers; this means that he is even more of a deceiver than Satan himself. Isn’t this whole thing kind of problematic?
Just like any religious text, we can never define an entire religion with a single verse, nor can we pick individual verses, take them out of context, and use them to “prove” a point which they were never intended to address in the first place. That doesn’t stop some people from trying, unfortunately. What you need to understand is that it isn’t so much that the particular point is correct or incorrect (translated rightly or wrongly, etc.), but that the entire method of “reasoning” is fallacious.
The answer to your question (the one in the title, at least) is that yes, Muslims and Catholics do worship the same God, because we all worship the God Who revealed Himself to Abraham. Our differences are not in what God we worship, but in what we believe about that one God.
We Christians believe that God revealed Himself when the Son became Incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ; and that God did not reveal Himself in any way that contradicts this. Any contradictory messages are not revealed by God but are human inventions.
The method of reasoning which you reference in your post* is the sort that confuses the message with the God (ie, thinks that the message IS the God–whether it’s Islam or Christianity, or any other faith). The idea is to show that if the message (the Koran) is self-contradicting, then the God is a false god who does not really exist.
*Although you don’t say it directly, I can glean from the question the type of source that prompts the question.
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gmx2014
Guest
It is an example, Edwin… meant to deepen understanding.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Imperfect how exactly when they deny the very character and person of the Christian God? I know what the Catholic church teaches but it does not correspond to the reality that the islamic God is not the one God in trinity of Christians.
meltzerboy
New member
Thank you, FrDavid, for providing the definitive answer to the OP’s question.
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tonyfish58
Guest
This would pose 2 questions if I may?
If you agree that you worship the same God, then it only stands to reason that one must attribute Truth to the Words of the Koran in at least some aspects, would that be correct? and
If you use the entire Koran in context of its content and of when, where and to who it was revealed, how does it conflict with the Bible?
Your knowledge would be appreciated!
Regards Tony
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Contarini
Guest
Your position implies that God was wholly unknown before the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated.
That’s just obviously wrong, and implies the heresy of Marcionism. Some Eastern Christians try to get around this by arguing that the Trinity was known in the OT, but that’s far-fetched at best.
God was known before Jesus. Jesus revealed Himself to be the Son of God, and that would be meaningless if the “God” people worshiped before this wasn’t the true God. But before Jesus people had a seriously imperfect understanding of God.
Muslims have, alas, chosen to go back to that “imperfect” understanding. But it makes absolutely no sense to say that by doing so they are now worshiping a different god than the one True God worshiped by Jews and God-fearers before the coming of Jesus, and hence (unless you are a Marcionite) by Christians too.
Edwin
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FrDavid96
Guest
No. It would not be correct.
It does not “stand to reason.” Think about it…
If someone were to produce a fake Monet painting and a third party asked me “does that dealer claim that the painting was done by the famous Monet?” And I were to answer that third party “yes, the claim is that it was painted by the same famous Monet, not a different artist” That does not mean that I’m ascribing any “authenticity” (or to use your original word “truth”) to the claim. If someone were to ask me a different question “is it real or fake?” I would say “it’s fake”
Do you see the difference between the 2 questions?
Your knowledge would be appreciated!
First of all, I cannot answer the question because of the way it was phrased “to who it was revealed” Since I do not believe that the Koran was revealed at all.
I will try to answer the question though, because I understand what you’re asking; and because I’m not trying to play word games with you. The point though is important. Believing that the Koran exists is not the same thing as believing that it was revealed.
There are just too many conflicts between Islam (including what’s written in the Koran, of course) and what was revealed in the person of Christ.
To begin with, the very Trinity; but even before that, the Divinity of Jesus Christ—the Eternal Unbegotten Son Who became incarnate (insert the rest of Christology here). Islam denies the divinity of Jesus Christ (regarding Him as only a prophet, albeit the greatest one). That’s a huge difference and a huge conflict.
Islam does not regard what we Christian see as salvation history through the Old Testament. To a Christian, the Exodus, and the entire history of the descendants of Abraham (through Isaac) is the pre-figuring of the Christian Church (the parting of the waters prefigured baptism, mana in the desert prefigured Eucharist, Joseph in the Old Testament prefigured Joseph in the New Testament etc. etc.). This history is not accidental or incidental; instead, it is God preparing His people for the Christ. While Islam accepts certain elements of this history (like Moses as a prophet), their understanding of it is extremely different than the Jewish and Christian understanding. There’s just too much here to put it all in one post.
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tonyfish58
Guest
Thank you for that. I can see the difference you are making.
Do you think much these same accusations were made by the Jews as to the Christ and the New Testament?
I understand there is too much too put in posts.
I could add comments about God Preparing the Way from Mankind, but will leave it with the question, why do you think that God stopped preparing the way?
God Bless and Regards Tony
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Ah, didn’t know I was a marcionite who denies the Old testament. In any case you are mistaken, i do not accept the marcionite heresy and absolutely reject it. The God of the old testament has revealed himself in stages to the world, he did it first through Abraham then finally through his son. Before the trinity was formally defined there was no fault on those who did not publically profess it because God had yet to reveal himself in his son. You believe the same thing about Jesus, that the patriarchs did not have to invoke Jesus but as Jesus said they looked forward to his day to the day when the promises of God would be fulfilled. I do not know if they knew it would be in the way it happened, but they were looking forward nontheless and in that hope and the faithfulness of God. So no, I do not reject the Old testament.
Obviously we are not living in the Old testament world, we are living in the world of the New testament in which God having revealed himself in his son as told us who he truely is, three persons in one substance, one holy trinity. This is God, this is the Christian God, the same God under whose name people are saved, that there is no other name under heaven or earth by which we can be saved, that to be forgiven for our sins is to be forgiven in the name of Jesus. To deny the son is to deny the father and the spirit and this is exactly what muslims do along with the jews and the UNitarians. I unlike the Catholic will let the muslims have their ideas, their God is not Jesus and I accept that. They curse and condemn any who say Jesus is God and the cause of salvation, I accept that. They say we should not be idolators in worshipping a man, I accept that. I will not accept that they who deny Jesus, who explicietely tell me he is not God, who are quite clear about this and are unrepentent in it as worshipping the true God. If they say they believe in the father but do not believe in Jesus they are tearing God asunder and dividing God and that is impossible, God is one substance of divinity and to worship one person of the trinity is to acknowledge all three as equal and eternal.
Their God is childless, my God has a son who is his only begotten. Their God does not love the disbeliever, my God loves the disbeliever even while punishing them. Their God curses those who worship jesus Christ and says they are going to hell whereas my God, the trinity, accepts them and gives them glory because they confess in the name of the son. Their God forgives by his own will with no (name removed by moderator)ut from Jesus whereas my God acknowledges the name of his son.
Their understanding is not imperfect, it is absolute blasphemy and a denial of God. A corruption which in guise of being “of Abraham” has lead many to destruction.
If you want to maintain your God is the same as the Muslim’s God then go ahead but I will have nothing to do with it. Also before anyone says; “then you have to accept the jews as not worshipping the true God as well!” That should be obvious.
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dzheremi
Guest
Don’t get too hurt, IgnatianPhilo. Edwin’s go-to insult is to call people Marcionites if they don’t submit to his classical reasoning of “if A, then B”. Yawn. Get some new material, Edwin. You tried that one out on me years ago, and for much the same reason (and with much the same result).
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Its true the Christians, Jews and Muslims worship one God. Its also true in the case of the Muslims that they profess to worship the God of Abraham.
Problem with the later story is I think they confused the serpent in Genesis with the God of Abraham who more than likely revealed himself to Mohammed.
I do think they believe they worship God though self admittedly by them, a different God than us. I agree with them also.
Ishmael was wicked there is a significant twist in the three religions right here. And as early as Genesis.
Regarding the word “Mitzachek” (again in Gen. 21:9) The Jewish Study Bible by Oxford University Press says this word in this particular context is associated with; "Playing is another pun on Isaac’s name (cf. 17.17; 18.12; 19.14; 26.8). Ishmael was ‘Isaacing’, or ‘taking Isaac’s place’. Which of course rings true also today. They are trying to take your place. And the same agenda has been reoccurring a very long time in history. The Grand Mufti plan is in full effect.
St Paul claims Hagar is associated with the Sinai covenant, while Sarah is associated with the covenant of grace into which her son Isaac enters. Mohammed took his followers back to this period. Galatians 4:28–31
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 4:29
At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
Problem with the later story is I think they confused the serpent in Genesis with the God of Abraham who more than likely revealed himself to Mohammed.
I do think they believe they worship God though self admittedly by them, a different God than us. I agree with them also.
Ishmael was wicked there is a significant twist in the three religions right here. And as early as Genesis.
Regarding the word “Mitzachek” (again in Gen. 21:9) The Jewish Study Bible by Oxford University Press says this word in this particular context is associated with; "Playing is another pun on Isaac’s name (cf. 17.17; 18.12; 19.14; 26.8). Ishmael was ‘Isaacing’, or ‘taking Isaac’s place’. Which of course rings true also today. They are trying to take your place. And the same agenda has been reoccurring a very long time in history. The Grand Mufti plan is in full effect.
St Paul claims Hagar is associated with the Sinai covenant, while Sarah is associated with the covenant of grace into which her son Isaac enters. Mohammed took his followers back to this period. Galatians 4:28–31
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 4:29
At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
"St Paul informs us that Jesus Christ will not return until the great apostasy has come.
St Augustine tells us that in every age we have those who renounce Christ on account of heretics and the fear of persecution and tyranny. Nevertheless the defection that takes place under the antichrist is called the apostasy, and this apostasy is to exceed all previously seen.
The Son of God will keep His promise to His Church. He said; “propter electos dies breviabuntur” or because of the elect the days will be shortened.
Moreover St John in Revelation adds; “And the Beast will be worshipped by those who dwell on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life”
St Augustine tells us that in the reign of the antichrist there will be a multitude of martyrs, the confessors will relocate and be covered by Gods hand.
Daniel tells us that at the time the persecution breaks out the abomination of desolation will openly be enthroned in the Holy place for all to see. “The King shall do as pleases” “He shall exalt himself and make himself greater than any god, he shall utter dreadful blasphemies against the God of gods…He shall have no regard for the God of his ancestors…for no god shall he have regard”.
In other words once the man of sin has cowed the human race by his threats and entangled it in a mesh of lies, he will observe no restraint. He will not permit anyone to worship or invoke any other god but only himself, he will proclaim himself sole lord of heaven and earth.
Wherever he is not present men will be bound to pay homage. He will tolerate no religion. He will persecute with equal thoroughness every sect who recognizes a supreme being and the immortality of the life to come.
Assisting unintentionally in this reign will be the demise of many false religions. They too will not be allowed to continue though their darkness ushered in this reign.
The consolation will be proportionate to the tribulation His Church suffers."
Fr Charles Arminjon - The End of the present world pg 67-68
St Augustine tells us that in every age we have those who renounce Christ on account of heretics and the fear of persecution and tyranny. Nevertheless the defection that takes place under the antichrist is called the apostasy, and this apostasy is to exceed all previously seen.
The Son of God will keep His promise to His Church. He said; “propter electos dies breviabuntur” or because of the elect the days will be shortened.
Moreover St John in Revelation adds; “And the Beast will be worshipped by those who dwell on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life”
St Augustine tells us that in the reign of the antichrist there will be a multitude of martyrs, the confessors will relocate and be covered by Gods hand.
Daniel tells us that at the time the persecution breaks out the abomination of desolation will openly be enthroned in the Holy place for all to see. “The King shall do as pleases” “He shall exalt himself and make himself greater than any god, he shall utter dreadful blasphemies against the God of gods…He shall have no regard for the God of his ancestors…for no god shall he have regard”.
In other words once the man of sin has cowed the human race by his threats and entangled it in a mesh of lies, he will observe no restraint. He will not permit anyone to worship or invoke any other god but only himself, he will proclaim himself sole lord of heaven and earth.
Wherever he is not present men will be bound to pay homage. He will tolerate no religion. He will persecute with equal thoroughness every sect who recognizes a supreme being and the immortality of the life to come.
Assisting unintentionally in this reign will be the demise of many false religions. They too will not be allowed to continue though their darkness ushered in this reign.
The consolation will be proportionate to the tribulation His Church suffers."
Fr Charles Arminjon - The End of the present world pg 67-68
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