Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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Bahaitruth said:
PorknPie , PRmerger:

I would disagree that Islam taught against the Christian beliefs but rather it qualified them. For instance the atonement & resurrection of Jesus was turned into a symbol rather than the Apex/Final event it is understood by Christians to be. The finality of Moses was superceded by Jesus’s atonement, so Jesus’s atonement was superceded by Muhammad’s Messengership.
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Islam denies Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead.

Islam denies Christ is God incarnate, the second person of the Trinity.

Clearly, Islam teaches against Christian beliefs. There is no qualification to the above. Christianity has witnesses to Christ’s three year life, death on the cross, resurrection, appearance to on earth for 40 days after his death and his ascension to heaven. These witnesses are the twelve apostles. Christianity rejects any public revelation from anyone claiming to be a prophet beyond the death of the last apostle. Anyone claiming to be a prophet and such bringing a new gospel is to be rejected. Saying that Christ was not God incarnate is to bring a new gospel. Scripture warns us of this happening, 1 Galatians below:

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

That we worship the same God, the God of Abraham. 👍

(note: no one at any time has claimed to have the body of Christ; this is unlike every one of the apostles where people have claimed to have their remains. Why: it is no longer on earth having been resurrected; want to disprove Christianity? Find the remains of Christ. It won’t happen…)
 
Bahaitruth said:
PRmerger, well yeah, Muslims that say that are wrong… Even Christians that say a similar thing about Moses are wrong (Christians claiming that Moses’s 10 commandments and Law are thrown out).

But you are correct that Chrisianity and Judaism are more solidly linked (Old and New Testament form one book).

For Baha’is, the Quran is the third testament.
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Christians do not throw out the Ten Commandments. As to the other 613 commandments of the Law, which are really an elaboration of each of the Ten Commandments, Christians do not discard all of these either; however, they do believe that Jesus fulfilled at least the ritualistic aspects of the Law by means of internalizing the external trappings of the Law. From the Jewish perspective, it is not considered correct to separate the Law with regard to moral precepts and ritualistic ceremonies. The two are often intertwined and should not, indeed cannot, be so neatly divided. That is why all the behavior commanded by the Law should be practiced with one’s mind, heart, and soul as well as externally.
 
meltzerboy said:
…internalizing the external trappings of the Law.
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This…

This is what spiritual progression of revelation is significantly about.

Especially when it comes to the mystical aspects of religion.

We have now “internalized” a lot of the rituals of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as found in the spiritual practices of the Bahai Faith…

There is still some aspect of externalism but it’s significantly personalized…

.
 
Servant19 said:
This…

This is what spiritual progression of revelation is significantly about.

Especially when it comes to the mystical aspects of religion.

We have now “internalized” a lot of the rituals of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as found in the spiritual practices of the Bahai Faith…

There is still some aspect of externalism but it’s significantly personalized…

.
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Which of the 613 OT commandments do you believe to be mystical?

Which of these 613 commandments of the OT do you internalize and why?

Similarly, what rituals of Christianity do you internalize?

PnP
 
Sorry metzelboy, I don’t understand what you mean.

Yes it is true most Christians embrace 613 laws while most Muslims reject New Testament atonement and divinity of Jesus. My point was that a minority of Christians reject 613 laws and a minority of Muslims embrace atonement and divinity of Jesus.
Islam denies Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead.
Islam denies Christ is God incarnate, the second person of the Trinity.
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My point was most Muslims deny it, that most Muslims are wrong, and some Muslims are right. Baha’is for example, though not Muslims, embrace atonement and divinity though not in a “final” sense. But Christians don’t believe in the 613 laws in a “final” sense either.

Some Shia forms of Islam embrace the divinity and atonement of Jesus in the same light as the divinity of [Imam] Ali and atonement of [Imam] Husayn.
 
So I don’t understand Metzelboy’s point then. Are you saying that Atonement of Christ is the non-Jewish equivalent of 613 laws for Jews? And if so, is this really the Jewish position “for the most part”?
 
Bahaitruth said:
Sorry metzelboy, I don’t understand what you mean.

Yes it is true most Christians embrace 613 laws while most Muslims reject New Testament atonement and divinity of Jesus. My point was that a minority of Christians reject 613 laws and a minority of Muslims embrace atonement and divinity of Jesus.

My point was most Muslims deny it, that most Muslims are wrong, and some Muslims are right. Baha’is for example, though not Muslims, embrace atonement and divinity though not in a “final” sense. But Christians don’t believe in the 613 laws in a “final” sense either.

Some Shia forms of Islam embrace the divinity and atonement of Jesus in the same light as the divinity of [Imam] Ali and atonement of [Imam] Husayn.
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Bahaitruth, I believe you stated that some Christians, albeit a minority, reject the Ten Commandments. I don’t know of ANY Christians who do so. And I must also question whether even a minority of Muslims embrace the divinity of Jesus since I’ve never heard of Shia, Sunni, or any other stream of Islam that accepts Jesus as G-d, if that is what you mean by divinity. But I could be wrong about this. I’m also not sure whether Christians, as a whole, accept all of the 613 commandments, at least not in the same way that Jews do. That is what I was trying to convey in my previous post with reference to the internalization of the Law by Jesus. Nor, as Jharek points out, are Christians required to follow the Law in the same way as Jews according to the tenets of both Judaism and Christianity. What individual followers of Judaism, Christianity (including Catholicism), or Islam believe about any of these issues is, I think, another subject.
 
Servant19 said:
Can you show me where in the Quran it says that Jesus did not atone for sins please?

.
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“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger of God… for God is One God; glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of Affairs.” (Quran 4:171)

See here also: truthnet.org/islam/Muslimchrist/introduction/

And here: "That they said (in their boast), “We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of Allah”- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise- Q 4:157-158.
 
Does atonement of “the Lamb of God” annul the need for the Law? Or do those who keep the Law need to accept the atonement of God’s Lamb?
 
I mean, if no one is saved except through the atonement of Christ, then how is This statement not an annulment of the Law that predates Jesus’s birth?

Surely my answer that 2nd grade follows 1st grade was countered by meltzerboy with “I learned all I need to know in kindergarten”.
 
Bahaitruth said:
Why is this not a contradictory answer?
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I think the short answer is that the Law is not meant as a means of going to heaven and thus being saved, whereas Jesus’ sacrifice is meant as a means of salvation. The Law is followed primarily because G-d commanded us to do so. The secondary reason is that it is for our own good because the Law teaches us how to live a just, merciful, moral life. But, according to Judaism, it is not a question of seeking the reward of salvation by following the Law.
 
Meltzerboy, thanks.

So let me ask you, how is salvation attained in Judaism if not through the Law?
 
Bahaitruth said:
Meltzerboy, thanks.

So let me ask you, how is salvation attained in Judaism if not through the Law?
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Salvation is not, and never was, the focus in Judaism, even among the Pharisees, who believed in heaven. It is this earthly life and living a good, moral life in accord with the Will of G-d that is the focus. Since Judaism does not believe in original sin, it does not believe we have to be saved from anything. Individual atonement for our sins is the way we reconcile ourselves toward G-d and our fellow man. The personal afterlife and the World to Come, which many but not all Jews believe in, is a great mystery since it is not elaborated upon in the Law, only hinted at. We have trust that G-d will provide for all of us humans (and animals) in a just and merciful way.
 
Bahaitruth said:
I mean, if no one is saved except through the atonement of Christ, then how is This statement not an annulment of the Law that predates Jesus’s birth?
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You are creating a dichotomy when there need not be one.

It’s the good old Catholic Both/And at play here.

There is no need to say that we are saved by the Law only. Or that the atoning death of Christ annuls the Law. Both are necessary.
Surely my answer that 2nd grade follows 1st grade was countered by meltzerboy with “I learned all I need to know in kindergarten”.
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Sure. The basics.Everything is there. All the things we were taught in k-garten are true indeed. Share. Don’t forget your coat when it’s cold. Wash your hands. 2 + 2 = 4.

But if one wants to do calculus, one needs The Calculus Teacher.
 
meltzerboy said:
Salvation is not, and never was, the focus in Judaism, even among the Pharisees, who believed in heaven. It is this earthly life and living a good, moral life in accord with the Will of G-d that is the focus. Since Judaism does not believe in original sin, it does not believe we have to be saved from anything. Individual atonement for our sins is the way we reconcile ourselves toward G-d and our fellow man. The personal afterlife and the World to Come, which many but not all Jews believe in, is a great mystery since it is not elaborated upon in the Law, only hinted at. We have trust that G-d will provide for all of us humans (and animals) in a just and merciful way.
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So my question to Catholics is, what is the explanation for such a fundamental change from Judaism to Christianity? Assuming the answer is not “well the Jews are wrong”, how is the answer to this question essentially different from the Bahai claim that God changed the fundamentals again from Christianity to Islam?

And if the answer is “well the Jews are wrong”, how is this essentially different from the Islamic claim that “well Christians are wrong”?
 
Bahaitruth;11736787]So my question to Catholics is, what is the explanation for such a fundamental change from Judaism to Christianity?
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There never is a fundamental change from Judaism to Christianity.

The New (Christianity) Covenant is hidden in the Old (Judaism) Covenant, and the Old (Judaism) covenant get’s revealed (fulfilled) in the New (Christianity) Covenant, when nothing is lost from Judaism in the natural law that is raised divinely in the eternal covenant of God in the Spirit of the Law (LOVE) which fulfills the natural (death) into Christianity (eternal life).

In fact our liturgies mirror one another. Judaism in the natural order, while Christianity in the eternal Spiritual order. Only God can make this possible when nothing is impossible for God.

We both await the coming of the Lord. Christianity waits for the second coming, Judaism waits for the coming of the Lord.

Muslims also await the coming of the Lord, in terms distinct and different from Jews and Christians that never meets the divine revelations/prophecies of the coming of the Lord revealed in Judaism and Christianity.

In short Jesus was born into Judaism, was crucified, became our suffering servant, died and was buried, and resurrected and ascended into heaven according to the scriptures, who fulfilled the letter of the law and the prophets, and who makes all things new.

What makes you think a Catholic would say the Jews got it wrong?

The only one who officially state; The people of the book (Jews and Christians) got it wrong are those of the Islamic faith.

Sign, a practicing Roman Catholic
Peace be with you
 
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