Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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GaryTaylor said:
Oh one could, in blind faith, and simply by the CCC actually I do.

Your saying we should all do the reading before the affirmation and consent [which I did] in fact after the consent, or its also just as true we can read the point an question and in Blind Faith be just as certain as to which we consent and affirm?

Problem is unless in Blind Faith how do we know what we affirmed and consent to without deeper reading in regards?

Fair?
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I am not understanding your point.

It does appear, though, that you are saying that you actually do NOT agree with what the Catechism, the “sure norm” for teaching the faith according to Pope JPII, has professed.

And that is why you cannot affirm what is being said.

You are trying to get it to say something that you agree with, by changing its meaning to your own view, and thus you can still remain, in your estimation, a faithful Catholic.

I suggest you start with the point: the CC is right about Muslims worshipping the same God we do, and even if I don’t understand it, I will wrestle with it until I can say, with both my mind and heart, “I believe that Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God.”

Until then, perhaps this from the great Cardinal Newman may be your paradigm: as you struggle with this teaching of the Catholic faith, one “may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

IOW: You may be annoyed that you don’t understand the Church’s teaching on this, without doubting that the Church is correct on this.
 
PRmerger said:
I am not understanding your point…
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Which one?
PRmerger said:
It does appear, though, that you are saying that you actually do NOT agree with what the Catechism, the “sure norm” for teaching the faith according to Pope JPII, has professed…
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No I’m saying there are different levels of emphasis and definition in various areas. The large picture is really not of issue. The specifics of explicit meaning here 841 require what is other than in the CCC, you didn’t respond to this above?
PRmerger said:
And that is why you cannot affirm what is being said…
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I cannot confirm what is being said without deeper reading in this regard unless following strictly blind faith which is where I was coming from in the last post.
PRmerger said:
You are trying to get it to say something that you agree with, by changing its meaning to your own view, and thus you can still remain, in your estimation, a faithful Catholic…
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No I’m trying to explicitly understand what is said, of which there is only implicit reference, no Quran, Islam etc. Further reading is required?
PRmerger said:
I suggest you start with the point: the CC is right about Muslims worshipping the same God we do, and even if I don’t understand it.
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Oh I do understand it, but I didn’t arrive at this without deeper reading. I took it on faith since its complete understanding isn’t required for Salvation in this regard. "The plan of salvation " is the priority
PRmerger said:
Until then, perhaps this from the great Cardinal Newman may be your paradigm: as you struggle with this teaching of the Catholic faith, one “may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”…
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Humbly concerned.
PRmerger said:
IOW: You may be annoyed that you don’t understand the Church’s teaching on this, without doubting that the Church is correct on this.
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I never get annoyed with the Church, it comes out right in the end for it could be no other way. Prevail indeed. I’m concerned, but I do trust.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Which one?

No I’m saying there are different levels of emphasis and definition in various areas. The large picture is really not of issue. The specifics of explicit meaning here 841 require what is other than in the CCC, you didn’t respond to this above?

I cannot confirm what is being said without deeper reading in this regard unless following strictly blind faith which is where I was coming from in the last post.

No I’m trying to explicitly understand what is said, of which there is only implicit reference, no Quran, Islam etc. Further reading is required?

Oh I do understand it, but I didn’t arrive at this without deeper reading. I took it on faith since its complete understanding isn’t required for Salvation in this regard. "The plan of salvation " is the priority

Humbly concerned.

I never get annoyed with the Church, it comes out right in the end for it could be no other way. Prevail indeed. I’m concerned, but I do trust.
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Why are you concerned?

What would it mean for you to say “I believe that Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God.”

You really cannot profess that, Gary?
 
I’m concerned for several reasons. First dissent shouldn’t be confused with a legitimate attempt to comprehend explicit meaning. This explicit meaning is not in the 841 dialogue which as suggested is the “par excellence” in this regard. Impossible unless blind faith is followed.

Now as to the further question “Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God” in blind faith only you can arrive at this conclusion by 841.

So then by reading only 841 and without blind faith you couldn’t come to this conclusion.
 
GaryTaylor said:
I’m concerned for several reasons. First dissent shouldn’t be confused with a legitimate attempt to comprehend explicit meaning. This explicit meaning is not in the 841 dialogue which as suggested is the “par excellence” in this regard. Impossible unless blind faith is followed.

Now as to the further question “Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God” in blind faith only you can arrive at this conclusion by 841.

So then by reading only 841 and without blind faith you couldn’t come to this conclusion.
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Let’s just start with this: can you say, “I believe that Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God.”

I would like to see that as a post from you. 🙂
 
GaryTaylor said:
I’m concerned for several reasons. First dissent shouldn’t be confused with a legitimate attempt to comprehend explicit meaning. This explicit meaning is not in the 841 dialogue which as suggested is the “par excellence” in this regard. Impossible unless blind faith is followed.

Now as to the further question “Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God” in blind faith only you can arrive at this conclusion by 841.

So then by reading only 841 and without blind faith you couldn’t come to this conclusion.
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No Gary,

None of that is true. You refuse to accept what the Church teaches, as clearly articulated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This “dialogue” does not in the least way prove that there is any ambiguity in the Church’s teaching—because any perceived ambiguity is strictly of your own making. The Church is clear. The only point that you have been able to prove is the point that you do not accept what the Church teaches. You’ve proved that beyond any doubt at this point.
 
PRmerger said:
Let’s just start with this: can you say, “I believe that Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God.”

I would like to see that as a post from you. 🙂
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1000% Sister. Did you say we are in communion? Not hard to tell why.

.
 
GaryTaylor said:
1000% Sister. Did you say we are in communion? Not hard to tell why.

.
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Excellent.

So the question is answered. You believe what the Catholic Church professes and the answer to the OP is “Yes!”

To the degree that Muslims profess belief in One God, who is transcendent, all merciful, all just is the degree that Catholics say, 'You are correct, dear Muslim and together we will evangelize the atheists, Bahais, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, who do not agree with us that there is only One God!"
 
PRmerger said:
Excellent.

So the question is answered. You believe what the Catholic Church professes and the answer to the OP is “Yes!”

To the degree that Muslims profess belief in One God, who is transcendent, all merciful, all just is the degree that Catholics say, 'You are correct, dear Muslim and together we will evangelize the atheists, Bahais, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, who do not agree with us that there is only One God!"
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And to proceed further: together with Lutherans, Evangelical Christians, SDAs, Presbyterians, we will tell our brother Muslims “Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God by whose Passion and Death our sins were forgiven!”
 
Servant19 said:
The martyrs died and were saved because of their faith in Jesus Christ and the expression of “pistis Christu”

Jesus was the human Godhead for all humans until Muhammad declared “I am”

.
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The problem with that statement is that behind it is the idea that the worshiper of Zeus, whom with a sincere heart and conviction and faith in his god Zeus, married to his sister and unfaithful constantly to her, was a dispenser of justice. The Martyrs at the first could have believed this according to you and they would be no better off. To say otherwise is to contradict everything you have said thus far. The Martyrs died for nothing, in fact this life is meaningless cause everything is an acceptable action to your God.
 
Originally Posted by Servant19
The martyrs died and were saved because of their faith in Jesus Christ and the expression of “pistis Christu”
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Jesus was the human Godhead for all humans until Muhammad declared “I am”
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Hold up - Muhammad never declared to be a human Godhead. Let’s put “I am” in its place here, Glorified is Allah above all that you ascribe to Him.

‘Do not adulate me as the Christians have adulated the Son of Mary. For I am but His slave. So say ‘slave of God, and His messenger’.‘”

Muhammad: " I am a servant/slave to Almighty God."
Muhammad: " I am His Messenger."

NO MORE. NO LESS. Alhamdulillaah for the religion of Islam - the religion of moderation.
 
Katie_Kilbane said:
Hold up - Muhammad never declared to be a human Godhead. Let’s put “I am” in its place here, Glorified is Allah above all that you ascribe to Him.

‘Do not adulate me as the Christians have adulated the Son of Mary. For I am but His slave. So say ‘slave of God, and His messenger’.‘”

Muhammad: " I am a servant/slave to Almighty God."
Muhammad: " I am His Messenger."

NO MORE. NO LESS. Alhamdulillaah for the religion of Islam - the religion of moderation.
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Indeed the same as in Judaism, in which Moses, our greatest Prophet, is a messenger of G-d’s but hardly equivalent to G-d Himself.
 
PRmerger said:
Excellent.

So the question is answered. You believe what the Catholic Church professes and the answer to the OP is “Yes!”

To the degree that Muslims profess belief in One God, who is transcendent, all merciful, all just is the degree that Catholics say, 'You are correct, dear Muslim and together we will evangelize the atheists, Bahais, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, who do not agree with us that there is only One God!"
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Baha’is do not believe that there is One God???

:eek:

.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The problem with that statement is that behind it is the idea that the worshiper of Zeus, whom with a sincere heart and conviction and faith in his god Zeus, married to his sister and unfaithful constantly to her, was a dispenser of justice. The Martyrs at the first could have believed this according to you and they would be no better off. To say otherwise is to contradict everything you have said thus far. The Martyrs died for nothing, in fact this life is meaningless cause everything is an acceptable action to your God.
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This all depends on if Zeus was actually in reality the chosen Godhead for his time and era.

I don’t believe there are any historical records to indicate as such

.
 
Katie_Kilbane said:
Hold up - Muhammad never declared to be a human Godhead. Let’s put “I am” in its place here, Glorified is Allah above all that you ascribe to Him.

‘Do not adulate me as the Christians have adulated the Son of Mary. For I am but His slave. So say ‘slave of God, and His messenger’.‘”

Muhammad: " I am a servant/slave to Almighty God."
Muhammad: " I am His Messenger."

NO MORE. NO LESS. Alhamdulillaah for the religion of Islam - the religion of moderation.
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Yes, His Messengers are the Godhead Kate. They are a human Representative.

The moment Muhammad reveal His Message, the whole world was expected to believe, yes?

.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, I’ve never heard of the Bahai religion as being monotheistic. It seems to be outside the norm of the 3 Great Abrahamic religions.
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It’s fully a monotheistic Abrahamic religion 🙂

But as humans we acknowledge the epistemological reality of the Messenger of God who represents the Godhead for each age

.
 
Servant19 said:
It’s fully an Abrahamic religion 🙂

But as humans we acknowledge the epistemological reality of the Messenger of God who represents the Godhead for each age

.
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Yeah. So that’s why I included Bahais in my original list of folks who need evangelizing by Muslims, Jews and Christians.
 
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