Do Muslims Really Know Who God Is ?

[DavidMark]

How valiant and good of you, Iwest, to stand up for this! Pay no heed at all to voices that divide, but rather the steady steps taken towards union. Yahweh and Allah and Brahman and Tao and Veracocha (and many other names for Him in history) are the same.
Blessings come to those who are working for unity; curses are brought upon us ourselves when we don’t. Imagine being a pharisee and being called VIPER by the Lord Christ!
Jharek: My feeling is not to address you again personally, unless you apologize for your insult. You don’t really want dialogue, do you?

 

[lwest]

I dont’ know anything about Tao or Brahman. I do know that the Bible mentions God telling Hagar that He’d make a great nation from Ishmael’s descendants. He also mentioned strife, right? I was surprised to see how often Ishmael is mentioned in the Bible. He and Abraham loved each other very much, it seemed. He is our brother, through Abraham, and he and Hagar got a shoddy deal by Sarah, IMHO.

But the battle with the Muslims has been going on for 1500 years. They seem to believe in killing the infidels (who are defined as anyone who’s not Muslim). Any country where they’re in charge means havoc to Christians. We don’t treat them that way but they treat us that way. Some of our basic, basic principles are so polarized. We may acknowledge them as brothers but they don’t seem to see us that way.

I also know that they honor Our Lady (they just call Her Mary) almost as much as we do. There’s even a building in Turkey, where Our Lady lived the last years of her life, where Muslims and Catholics pray in the same building. That’s almost miraculous If we can pray together ina little house in Turkey, why can’t we live together in peace, holding onto our seperate religions, in the rest of the world?

Is it because on both sides of the fence, hatred brews? If we let go of that hatred (us and them) could God’s grace could begin to work in our hearts? Or am I just being naive?

 

[grace_singh]

friend, the only way for a Muslim to have true peace with Christians and grace, is to accpet Jesus as God’s Son, and their Saviour.

not merely as a human slave of Allah, a prophet, or a finite human, which is how Islam reagrds Him.

Islam does respect Mary, and many figures of Judeo-Christian faith. but again, if you look at the heart of what Christians believe about Jesus and at what Muslims believe about Him, the beliefs are totally opposite.

i love Muslims, and some of the dearest people i know have been devout and sincere Muslims. but ignoring the differences in order to build a bridge of some kind can not be done without denying the basics of Christianity, denying Christ, the Bible, and the Biblical account of history.

we should always respect one another, and love our neighbors as ourselves. but from what i see and read and understand of both faiths, reconciliation or agreement is not truly possible if one does not want to basically deny Christ and convert to Islam. God can not have sent both Mohammad and Jesus, Iwest. after we have beat our swords into ploughs, are we to beat those ploughs back into swords again?

 

[lwest]

Because our faiths are so different, true friendship may not be possible but maybe the practice of going around killing us can stop. The fighting can stop. i couldn’t care less if my neighbors were muslim. i’d have a problem with a public call to prayer, though. That’s infringing upon my rights to NOT be a muslim.

i don’t know what the solution is. we can never deny Jesus. But are we called to convert our neighbors or just love them?

I’ve also heard someone comment that Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to run for office in this country because they’d use our freedoms against us. If we had a muslim president, muslim congress…this country wouldn’t be as tolerant of other religions. So what can be done about that when we, as a country, allow religious freedom? I’d love it if muslims would leave us be but that’s never been the case. I’m babbling. I’m sorry.

 

[grace_singh]

i would say the solution is to love them, respect what they believe in a general way (as we would like them to respect our beliefs even if we believe the opposite), and take any opportunity the Lord gives us to share the Truth.

i used to be a Muslim myself… i was a convert to Islam from a mixed Catholic-Lutheran background, until a dream about Jesus Christ oepened my heart to the Gospel, and to God’s gift of salvation.

it is very difficult for a Muslim to come to Christ, but it does happen, all over the world. Muslims can never truly respect Christians or what we believe, but we can make the choice to love them, treat them as we would like to be treated, and share God’s love through Christ with them, too.

Because our faiths are so different, true friendship may not be possible but maybe the practice of going around killing us can stop. The fighting can stop. i couldn’t care less if my neighbors were muslim. i’d have a problem with a public call to prayer, though. That’s infringing upon my rights to NOT be a muslim.

i don’t know what the solution is. we can never deny Jesus. But are we called to convert our neighbors or just love them?

I’ve also heard someone comment that Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to run for office in this country because they’d use our freedoms against us. If we had a muslim president, muslim congress…this country wouldn’t be as tolerant of other religions. So what can be done about that when we, as a country, allow religious freedom? I’d love it if muslims would leave us be but that’s never been the case. I’m babbling. I’m sorry.

 

[lwest]

Grace,
How cool is that?? Welcome back to the fold! Where there any negative repurcussions when you converted back to Catholicism and what was it that drew you into Islam to begin with? Do you still have Muslim friends?

Sorry for all the questions. I don’t get a chance to ‘speak’ to many converts, especially from Islam.

 

[grace_singh]

no, that’s cool, dude.

i grew up going to a Lutheran church, and to Mass with my families growing up. i loved the services and the music, but never understood “why Jesus”, what made Him special, why Christianity claimed a unique hold on truth, and why i had to go “through someone” to get close to God.

i went to church for years to please my family, and in college encountered Islam through some students from Somalia. i loved the praying five times a day (no one in my nominally Lutheran family ever prayed), the theology which made more sense to me than what i had grown up with, the Quran, and the Islamic religious culture. i bought a Quran, read it, and after a couple months of study embraced Islam.

i was a happy and devoted Muslim for several months, getting up every morning to pray, wearing a head scarf, etc. a Christina family from India came into my life just as i had converted, and began to challange me about Islam. i fought with them like crazy, debated the Bible, the divinity of Jesus, the trinity, and a million other things. intellectually i was very sure of Islam, but something bugged me… namely,. the way these Christians prayed. when they talked to and about God, it was like they were talking to their dearest friend, someone they knew personally. i was taken aback, as i had never heard a Muslim (or any one else) pray that way, and was determined to replicate what i heard from them. but i could not! somehow the Christians had something in their prayer life and spiritual life that i did not.

so one night, i humbled myself before God. i made a personal prayer to God asking “is Jesus Your Son? do You want me to follow Him? please let me know what is true, and take away the sadness and emptiness in my heart!” and the night, i had a dream. i was about to be killed in a car accident- a vehicle behind me was cmoming up way too fast, and about to crash. i was so scared, i cried out “Lord Jesus Christ, pelase save me!” and the moment i did, my own car turned into a kind of vapour. the car behind me passed right through my own, and kept going.

i woke up, and i was different. suddenly, for the first time in my life, i was not anxious, scared, unsure, or thirsty for God. i was happy, grateful, and had His peace in my heart. so since then, i have followed Jesus, as a Christian. i am not a Catholic specifically, but just a Christian. i love the Bible, and fellowshipping with other Christians. i would not return to Islam for anything… i did not deserve to be saved or helped (i had cursed and mocked Christ daily as a Muslim, and treated God’s people rudely to say the least) yet God had mercy, and delivered me.

i know He can and is doing the same for other Muslims, and non-believrs around the world. so that is my testimony in a (very big) nutshell. to God be the thanks and praise, and glory. :bible1:

 

[grace_singh]

my Muslims friend were very, very careful to politely avoid me after my conversion, and that is completely understandable. it can be dangerous to leave Islam, or be associated with someone who does. i don’t have any Muslim friends now, but do have a Christian family (church family) whom i love very much. i can still read and write in Arabic, and still remember parts of the Quran.

 

[hamba2han]

no, that’s cool, dude.

i grew up going to a Lutheran church, and to Mass with my families growing up. i loved the services and the music, but never understood “why Jesus”, what made Him special, why Christianity claimed a unique hold on truth, and why i had to go “through someone” to get close to God.

i went to church for years to please my family, and in college encountered Islam through some students from Somalia. i loved the praying five times a day (no one in my nominally Lutheran family ever prayed), the theology which made more sense to me than what i had grown up with, the Quran, and the Islamic religious culture. i bought a Quran, read it, and after a couple months of study embraced Islam.

i was a happy and devoted Muslim for several months, getting up every morning to pray, wearing a head scarf, etc. a Christina family from India came into my life just as i had converted, and began to challange me about Islam. i fought with them like crazy, debated the Bible, the divinity of Jesus, the trinity, and a million other things. intellectually i was very sure of Islam, but something bugged me… namely,. the way these Christians prayed. when they talked to and about God, it was like they were talking to their dearest friend, someone they knew personally. i was taken aback, as i had never heard a Muslim (or any one else) pray that way, and was determined to replicate what i heard from them. but i could not! somehow the Christians had something in their prayer life and spiritual life that i did not.

so one night, i humbled myself before God. i made a personal prayer to God asking “is Jesus Your Son? do You want me to follow Him? please let me know what is true, and take away the sadness and emptiness in my heart!” and the night, i had a dream. i was about to be killed in a car accident- a vehicle behind me was cmoming up way too fast, and about to crash. i was so scared, i cried out “Lord Jesus Christ, pelase save me!” and the moment i did, my own car turned into a kind of vapour. the car behind me passed right through my own, and kept going.

i woke up, and i was different. suddenly, for the first time in my life, i was not anxious, scared, unsure, or thirsty for God. i was happy, grateful, and had His peace in my heart. so since then, i have followed Jesus, as a Christian. i am not a Catholic specifically, but just a Christian. i love the Bible, and fellowshipping with other Christians. i would not return to Islam for anything… i did not deserve to be saved or helped (i had cursed and mocked Christ daily as a Muslim, and treated God’s people rudely to say the least) yet God had mercy, and delivered me.

i know He can and is doing the same for other Muslims, and non-believrs around the world. so that is my testimony in a (very big) nutshell. to God be the thanks and praise, and glory. :bible1:

Someone who would curse and mock Jesus Christ (pbuh) daily, is most certainly NOT a Muslim.

 

[Roy5]

I haven’t read all the posts, but a few quick comments.

(1) Islam took many things from the Old and New Testaments. They believe in Adam and the various prophets. They have dietary similar to Jews. Stoning to death as a form of capital punishment is Old Testament - see Ex. 21, Lev. 20, and Deut. 22-23.

(2) Islam, like Christianity, has many different expressions. Those who dominate in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are much more conservative on such matters as women’s rights and religious liberty. Iraq, before we invaded, was one of the more tolerant countries. For example, the highest % of women engineers of any country in the world was Iraq (something we didn’t read in the US press when we were egged on into a foolish war). Saddam was a dictator, but a secularist basically. Women did not have to cover themselves, bin laden despised him as an infidel.

(3) We need to work for reconciliation with the Muslims, unless we want perpetual war. There are a billion of them, and our policies have led many to believe that we are making war on Islam. Much of this began with our unqualified support of Israel. We have provided Israel with billions plus military and diplomatic backing whatever Israel does. We urge it not to expand settlements, but the expansion goes on, decade after decade. As Pat Buchanan has stated, when it comes to Israel our Congress is ‘occupied territory’. Politics - votes, money, and fear of retaliation from then powerful AIPAC and its allies. Israel, like some Muslim nations, discriminates against Christians. It does not permit Christian evangelism in Israel. The large majority of Christian Arabs are anti-Israel and have suffered both from Israel and from Muslim extremists - squeezed, as it were.

(4) As for God, Allah of course is the Arab word for God, used by Arab Christians, too. Our concepts of God differ some, but they differ some among Christians. There are Christians who emphasize hell, for example, how God condemns all those who do not accept Christ, etc. Christianity is 700 years older than Islam and has dropped much of its narrowness over the past couple of centuries. Remember when Christians burned other Christians to death because they were 'heretics'?

(5) Most Muslims detest terrorism done in their name. Wild Christian criticism of Islam is picked up by groups like Al Qaeda and used to recruit more terrorists. We need mutual respect, much as most Christians today respect Jews and Judaism even though they also reject Jesus as the Messiah. Muslims believe that Christ was born on the Virgin Mary and there is more space given her in the Korean than in the Bible. They also believe in his miracles, and that he will return to lead the army of the righteos at the climactic battle of Armageddon. In these respects they are closer to us than believing Jews. (Few US Jews are serious believers in the traditional Jewish faith.)

 (6) May God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[grace_singh]

someone who insists that God has no Son, that Jesus was never crucified, never rose from the dead, that He is not deserving of worship, and that the Jesus depicted the Gospels is an affront to God and a false, pagan conconction of ideas and myths is certainly mocking Christ.

they are by no means mocking Isa, but they are certainly mocking Christ.

Someone who would curse and mock Jesus Christ (pbuh) daily, is most certainly NOT a Muslim.

 

[hamba2han]

someone who insists that God has no Son, that Jesus was never crucified, never rose from the dead, that He is not deserving of worship, and that the Jesus depicted the Gospels is an affront to God and a false, pagan conconction of ideas and myths is certainly mocking Christ.

they are by no means mocking Isa, but they are certainly mocking Christ.

You mean there is a difference between the persons ‘Isa’ and ‘Christ’?

I honestly do not think that you even know what the word ‘Christ’ means.

 

[grace_singh]

yes, there is.

the Isa al-Masih of the Quran (or Isa ibn Maryam as he is also called) is not the same Person as Jesus Christ (or Messiah) in the Bible.

the Quran associates the two, yet Jesus had always been called " Yasou’ " by Arabic-speaking Christians prior to Mohammad, as is to this day.

You mean there is a difference between the persons ‘Isa’ and ‘Christ’?

I honestly do not think that you even know what the word ‘Christ’ means.

 

[grace_singh]

in other words, the Bible tells the truth about Jesus.

Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and that the Isa of the Quran (who is only a human being, a messenger of Allah, who escaped the crucifixion, and never rose from the dead) is the true Jesus, the real Jesus, and the Quran corrects the mistakes of the Bible and Christian belief.

yet in truth, the Jesus of the Gospels is the true and historical Jesus. the Quran does not tell the true and original story of Jesus. the Isa of the Quran is a non-existant person associated with Jesus, but whose reality is limited to the Quran.

 

[Mosacked]

in other words, the Bible tells the truth about Jesus.

Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and that the Isa of the Quran (who is only a human being, a messenger of Allah, who escaped the crucifixion, and never rose from the dead) is the true Jesus, the real Jesus, and the Quran corrects the mistakes of the Bible and Christian belief.

yet in truth, the Jesus of the Gospels is the true and historical Jesus. the Quran does not tell the true and original story of Jesus. the Isa of the Quran is a non-existant person associated with Jesus, but whose reality is limited to the Quran.

The muslims also believe that Isa had a miraculous birth, lived an impeccable life and will be returning from the skies…yet, they choose to call the man who was dumped upon birth to a foster mother and whose father died before he was born, and who had records of dubious character and is today rotting as the greaTER prophet.

Now how does that fit in with logic???

Even if Isa is a prophet, Isa must still be the Greatest Prophet.

.

 

[elwill]

someone who insists that God has no Son, that Jesus was never crucified, never rose from the dead, that He is not deserving of worship, and that the Jesus depicted the Gospels is an affront to God and a false, pagan conconction of ideas and myths is certainly mocking Christ.

they are by no means mocking Isa, but they are certainly mocking Christ.

with all my respect
someone who insists that God has no Son, that Jesus was never crucified, never rose from the dead, that He is not deserving of worship certainly anyone isn’t christian

it have nothing to do with mocking or insult or cursing for jesus (pbuh) , while we differ in some beliefs and events regarding jesus (pbuh) dosn’t mean that we mocking him .
the only religion and the only adherence respect jesus and his mother and honour them are the muslims ( regardless of his nature to be God or son of God or great prophet ) , afterall we respect and honour this character , you can’t say simply that we mocking him

unless you caonsider all the religions of the world but christianity mocking the christ because there are no other religion believe that jesus is God

 

[DavidMark]

Grace Singh, your story is more frequently heard now days. I recently got a book called Islam and Terrorism by Mark A. Gabriel, an Egyptian convert to Christianity from Islam. His own father tried to kill him because of his conversion. The UN Declaration of Human Rights supports peoples right to choose their faith…another reason Islam needs renewal.

There are many versions of Jesus’ name. Wasn’t is really Yeshuah or Yeheshua in Hebrew? Another reason the LORD’s name must become one.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

reference.bahai.org/ar/t/b/PM/ An Arabic website

 

[DavidMark]

DavidMark, Is it your contention that the actual Spirit of God has reincarnated (or however you want to phrase it) into each prophet throughout time, i.e. Moses was God and when he died, God’s spirit went back to Heaven and then came back through Jesus and when Jesus was crucified God’s Spirit went back to Heaven (and Jesus was physically buried ???) and then God came back as Muhammad, and when Muhammad died God went to back to Heaven and then came back as Bab and then Bahalluh? Am I understanding your beliefs correctly? (Please note that I do realize I did not include each and every prophet, but I think you can understand the gist of what I am asking.)

Jay53: Your question is well worded and sincere and timely. This is what Bahá’u’lláh Himself said in His principle exegesis, the theme of which is this very progressive Revelation:
** That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad the Messenger of God the Qur’án; in this day the Bayan; and in the dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest His own Book – the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book which standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme. **(Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 199)
And He said this before the Declaration of His own Mission, when He was still supporting the Mission of the Báb, which can be compared to Jesus going out to the Baptist. So, we see the Kitab-i-Aqdas, another volume of the divine Library He brought, as the Law of God until the next Manifestation of God, who will not appear before a thousand solar years from the beginning of this Dispensation.They are all one in Spirit, which doesn’t move as we move. Jesus was in heaven while He walked the earth.
John3:13 KJV And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

Also, Grace Singh said:.
2) Jesus already abrogated military jihad and fighting for Christians with His words, examples, Person, and advent. why would God later allow people to kill eachother again, and the send a third person to say “ok, no more killing in God’s Name” when Jesus has already said as much 2,000 years ago?

I know Christians won’t agree with this, but the state that Arabs were in during the 7th century was similar to that of Moses time. Although Jesus had exhibited incomparable meekness, conditions warranted a stronger hand to establish monotheism among those savages in Hijáz in their Jahíliyyih (Age of Ignorance). Now, Bahá’u’lláh again prescribes Christ-like meekness as the ruling principle of world civilization, and absolutely abrogated military jíhad. al-Qaida, and other groups are soon to be extinct, even if it requires the entire world to form a coalition against them. The caliphate and sultanate of the Osmanlís (Ottomans) was extinguished by a word from Bahá’u’lláh after a reign of at least 400 years; and He is not finished with them yet.

 

[DavidMark]

Again, a very substantial post and a truly spiritual view, Iwest!

There is more to be learned about Hagar and the Ismaelites in the West.
We believe that Hagar is the model for the Woman in Revelation 12, who goes into the wilderness, as Hagar did; and whose CHild is the Báb who appeared in 1260 AH (The 3½ “times” in 12:14 equal the1260 “day” Islamic Dispensation mentioned in 12:6)

The Kaaba became the center of prayer and pilgrimage instead of Jerusalem, and this also honored Abraham who was *“muslim” *and those haníf who tried to maintain monotheism.Obviously, the Ishmaelite Arabs are opposed to Israel’s return. For instance:

Psalms 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.83:5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: 83:6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarites; 83:7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; 83:8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.

Combine with that this passage from Ezkiel:
38:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of ****Meshech and Tubal ****(Russia?), and prophesy against him, 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 38:5 **Persia, Ethiopia (Somalia ?), and Libya **with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

Persia is Iran and we all know what their leaders want to do to Israel. During the 18th & 19th centuries Russia kept pounding and taking parts of Iran and Turkey, but some people think something will make them come against Israel; and some say a 200 million man army is to advance from China. whew! Satellites should pick that up!
Most importantly, if you consider what happened to the Jews and the small country of Judea for what was done to the Son of God for His three year ministry, what in God’s Name will happen to the many large Arab-Muslim countries for persecuting the Bab & Baha’u’llah for almost 50 years! The principle of reciprocity cannot be avoided.Here is a prophecy of Islam about the Bab,(this again disputes Muslims, Christians and Jews who say there is no new Book…as if God’s hands are chained up!)

Sadiq, (the 6th Imam) spoke the following: “There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim (The Clan of Muhammad), Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him.” (quoted by Baha’u’llah,* The Kitab-i-Iqan*, p. 241)

 

[KathleenGee]

Muslims are not supposed to read the Gospels…so if we try to communicate with them, we get the impression they are not reading our posts with references to the Gospels.

The Christ of the Gospels is not the same as Issa in the Quran.