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Booklover
Guest
If the Quran is not the words of God, but the words of a man, then are Muslims worshipping the true God, or a false god just like those who worshipped the golden calf?
Vickie
Vickie
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Montalban
Guest
Genesis 1:1
The Beginning ] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Ooops!
It would of course depend if the definitions, and context were the same.
As would a Hindu who speaks English when he refers to his god
Although this isn’t directed to me (I’m not Catholic, by the way), you have a legitimate right to worship your created being, if you so wish. I have no objection in that regard, for ultimately you will be judged by God as to which god you worship.
Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:4
God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:5
God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Genesis 1:6
And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.”
Genesis 1:7
So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
Genesis 1:8
God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
Genesis 1:9
And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:10
God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:11
Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:12
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
Genesis 1:16
God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
Genesis 1:17
God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
Genesis 1:18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:20
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.”
Genesis 1:21
So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:22
God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”
Genesis 1:24
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:25
God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
etc…
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Montalban
Guest
Indeed, they use the same word, but with different meaning. As I’ve noted on another thread an American, Englishman and Australian all might talk about a sport ‘football’, but to each of them it could mean any number of games
- American Football aka Gridiron
- English Association Football aka Soccer
- Australian Rules Football aka Aussie Rules
- Rugby League Football (go the Eels! parraeels.com.au/homepage/index.asp )
- Rugby Union Football.
or another
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hamba2han
Guest
This is not an accurate analogy at all.Indeed, they use the same word, but with different meaning. As I’ve noted on another thread an American, Englishman and Australian all might talk about a sport ‘football’, but to each of them it could mean any number of games
The same word denotes a ball-sport, but context is vital to know that they’re not talking about the same game; although there might be similarities in those games.
- American Football aka Gridiron
- English Association Football aka Soccer
- Australian Rules Football aka Aussie Rules
- Rugby League Football (go the Eels! parraeels.com.au/homepage/index.asp
- Rugby Union Football.
or another
The word ‘football’ here is referring to MANY kinds of sports.
By comparison, there is only ONE Creator of the Universe and He is the Deity that Muslims worship.
And Muslims are saying that the God of Abraham (pbuh) is indeed this ONE Creator of the Universe.
Are you saying then that the Creator of the Universe is NOT the God of Abraham??
Let us look at it in another way:
Suppose there are 3 different tribes living at different periods in history and they all worship the Sun.
If these tribes were to call the Sun by different names, would this mean that they were worshipping 3 different suns?
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JonathanKinsman
Guest
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JonathanKinsman
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Montalban
Guest
Of a particular type, involving a ball, and ‘feet’. Thus ‘darts’ is not a football sport, neither is swimming.
The mere name of the thing is not enough, we must look at what that thing is to the people who call it ‘football’
No. By comparison many people have a belief in a concept called ‘god’. Some believe that their god resides in an idol. Some believe their god is manifest as several beings. Some believe in one god only.
I’m saying that the god Moslems claim to be the God of Abraham is not the God of Abraham. Just because they claim it, doesn’t make it necessarily true. Thus we need to get beyond the mere use of the word ‘god’ and go have a look at what type of being Moslems claim is this god.
We can objectively see the sun to see if this thing they call the sun matches what we observe. We can therefore examine what tribe “a” worships, tribe “b” and so on. SO again this simply proves that we must get beyond the name of the thing and see what meaning they attach.
So in that sense three different faiths might call the one being different names, or three different faiths might call three different beings the same name, therefore the name itself is nothing, out of the context of the meaning it holds for the people using that word.
And the Islamic ideal of god is judged by many different attributes, including by the type of man it chose to send its message.
Now our God chose faulty men, too, such as David who lusted after a married woman. David of course repented his sins.
Muhammad never repented over-seeing the execution of PoWs, nor of having intercourse with a child. For him, by his own mouth these were things approved of by his god. Muhammad’s god deceived people (causing people to believe that Jesus had died). Other attributes can also be judged.
God would never have approved of such things.
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Montalban
Guest
Did God send Moses?
Yes -Judaism, Christianity, Islam
What was his message?
Judaism - it’s in the Tanakh/Old Testament
Christianity - it’s in the Tanakh/Old Testament
Islam - it’s a totally different message from the Bible
And so on for all the prophets. Islam rejects the message as Jews and Christians read it.
Yes -Judaism, Christianity, Islam
What was his message?
Judaism - it’s in the Tanakh/Old Testament
Christianity - it’s in the Tanakh/Old Testament
Islam - it’s a totally different message from the Bible
And so on for all the prophets. Islam rejects the message as Jews and Christians read it.
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Pater_Familias
Guest
Well at first blush this might seem so however cc841 refers to “profess” which it is submitted is synonymous with "claim"in the context which it is used.
Therefore the assertion that the God is the same isn’t proven by the mere ipse dixit that it is so.
Besides cc844-45 refers to errors men make outside the mother church.
Besides whether the God is the same or not is a red herring. Arians,pelgianists and cathars professed belief in the God of Abraham too,yet they were rightly denounced as heretics. Heresy is heresy!
Islam is the pervesion of the catholic faith by a man who lacked the education and intellect to fully understand the teachings of God
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Montalban
Guest
Worse than that, he was lead astray by a creature that knew all his own weakness; such as for women.
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freesoulhope
Guest
Radical islam is not what i was talking about. I know some islamic people who do not subscribe to the extreme evils of some indivisuals who claim to be worshipers of God, and do not derserve any abuse for being muslim. I agree that islam can become a dangerous thing if left unchecked, just like Christianity. But that doesn’t mean they deserve to be subject to ignorant remarks. That will not solve the problem; it will only inflame it. They are not barbarians-- they can be as loving or as sinful as anybody else.
As a Christian, its my duty to respect and love all people of all religions or otherwise.
Are you sure that you are not the one that is a victim of “Americanism” and “American” propaganda?
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freesoulhope
Guest
Im not a brit; i am a “human being” that happens to live in Britten. And it isn’t as “Great” as the queen makes it out to be!
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Montalban
Guest
What about the religions themselves? Do you have to respect them too?
Do you respect, for instance the “Children of God”?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_God#Child_abduction
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melbourne_guy
Guest
I rarely stick up for muslims in a debate but this is absolutely ridiculous!! Why on earth do catholics attack the violence in the quran, its just an EXTREMELY stupid way of debating. Have none of you people ever read the old testament! Its full of violence.
If you read arguments between muslims and catholics defending the violence in their holy books theres barely any difference, there just worded differently.
Catholics should think twice befor going down the ‘your Gods a killer’ path because its hypocritical.
If you read arguments between muslims and catholics defending the violence in their holy books theres barely any difference, there just worded differently.
Catholics should think twice befor going down the ‘your Gods a killer’ path because its hypocritical.
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freesoulhope
Guest
It depends on what the religion teaches. Although i am convinced that Muhammad is a false prophet, nobody on this forum has convinced me that the koran its self teaches suicide bombing anymore so then the bible. What i see, is people, who have a political agenda to rule the world economicaly and socaily, abusing religions; using them as a justification for violence and war. A twist of the word here and there, then walla!
The American Goverment uses Christianity as a hoodwink to inspire and influence the minds of a largly Christian country; nobody seems to be worried about them when they bomb other countrys for so called humaniterian reasons. I find that quite frightening.
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El_Paulo
Guest
I’d like to add my support to the sentiments expressed in this post. Mud slinging gets us nowhere.
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Milliardo
Guest
I said it once, and I’ll say it again–Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so yes they do worship the same God we do. Where we do not agree is what the nature of God is.
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Angelos
Guest
Could u please show me a single verse from the Old Testament which asks Jews to kill all the pagans if they resist converting to Judaism?
Thanks from now,
Angelos N.
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freesoulhope
Guest
They say this in the quran? If so, can you please provide me with some evidence?Could u please show me a single verse from the Old Testament which asks Jews to kill all the pagans if they resist converting to Judaism?
Thanks from now,
Angelos N.
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letisia
Guest
We all worshhip the same GOD. They just think his differnt
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