I
Indifferently
Guest
Jesus prayed to the Father because he IS the Son, the Second Person. I van tell you that nneither you nor I is Jesus, thus we must pray through him to the Father.
- Status
Zerg
Active member
take a glance at Uagi’s analogy about “Fred”. The CCC says that they DO worship the same God.
They only reject Christ because THEY believe that “god has no son, father or partner” in the fear of becoming an idolitor. Would you even think about Christianity if you had that logic?
While I certaintly disagree with the rampant belief that all religions are “equal” (even the Catholic Church CONDEMNS it), I DO believe that through their great faith in their gnorance some will be indirectly saved by Jesus.
IMHO All I can say is that if they are willing to seek truth, they will find it in Catholcism.
I once heard the presenter of a Muslim radio station (who is a psycologist and was giving some advice on depression, etc.) reading a text a listener sent and it sounded something like: “I’ve been a Christian listener of many years…I appreciate your [non-religious] advice”
The presenters response was “I’m glad you mentioned that you are Christian. We are all one under the Creator” [that was the presenter’s exact words].
There is a lot of truth in that simple sentence: "We are all [Muslims, Christians & Jews] one under the Creator. Just think about that.
Again, refering to Uagi’s analogy on Fred: They DO worship the same God…but that does NOT necessarily make them the true religion. The true religon is Catholicism.
For the record: Pope John Paul II was the first pope to kiss the Quran and pray in a mosque. He wanted to show that Christians and Muslims worship the same one and only God, and he wanted to mantain a dialogue with them. JPII wouldn’t do that if he was positive that Muslims do not worship the same God as Christians.
OFF-TOPIC: Brandon Vogt (A prominent Catholic blogger) sent a picture on his Tiwtter account: sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/28035_144010909081993_801404326_n.png
He tweeted that on 19 December 2012 (you can check it out).
The caption was: A Jew, A Catholic, A Muslim and an Atheist walk into a bar regardless of their spiritual differences.
As Catholics we SHOULD do all we can to mantain a dialogue with Muslims [and other faiths].
Zerg
Active member
Zerg
Active member
You should have said that before…
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Review his user profile (far right of his user name). Where we have Catholic, he has Church of England.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Take a look at what scripture says regarding those who deny the Father and the Son, and what constitutes a true follower of the true God. You are pitting a human analogy (and every analogy that deals with the Trinity fails for one reason or another) against scripture.
I assume you are speaking about Muslims here. If you are, that is incorrect - it is not that they believe God has no son, father, partner, etc. - it is that their god says that, as I cited before from their own Quran. Their god teaches that Christ is not divine, wasn’t crucified, the Trinity is a damnable lie…why would anyone in their right mind believe this God was the same God which the apostles and earliest Christians worshiped?
Demonstrate it from scripture, not your own opinion.
Again, what does scripture say?
I’m very sorry, but Pope John Paul II was wrong. Again, what does scripture say?
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Isn’t your entire argument based on your opinion of what the scripture means?
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
On the contrary, I quoted scripture that was relevant to the topic. If I’ve misused the passages, demonstrate how.
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
You quoted scripture, however what that quoted scripture means is basically your opinion.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Again, if I’ve misquoted scripture or used the passages out of their appropriate context, please show me how.
C
CountrySteve
Guest
I watched a Mass on EWTN the other day and a Bishop said that Muslims and Jews don’t worship the same God as we (Catholics) do. He said God doesn’t dwell in there temples.
meltzerboy
New member
According to my understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church, Muslims do worship the same G-d as Christians even though they do not believe in the Trinitarian G-d. (I do not know what the belief or beliefs of the various Protestant denominations are on this subject.) Likewise, according to Orthodox Judaism, Muslims worship the same G-d as Jews although they do not regard the Torah as their sacred text. In fact, once upon a time, most Orthodox Jews regarded Christianity as further removed from Judaism than Islam since Islam was viewed as more strictly monotheistic than Christianity. A Jew was never forbidden to enter a mosque but was forbidden to enter a church. This attitude has, thankfully, changed for most Jews.
R
Razanir
Guest
Again, Jesus was Jewish! Christianity didn’t exist until after his death. Acts of the Apostles is even about how we stopped being a Jewish sect and became our own religion.
There’s even proof of this in the Bible:
-The Finding in the Temple
-The Last Supper being a Passover dinner
-INRI– Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Iudaeorvm (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews)
-(Someone help me, those are the only three I’ve got)
By being Jewish he necessarily worshiped YHWH. If YHWH is not the Christian God, he would have broken his own 1st Commandment.
Also, how do you explain the Old Testament being (more or less) the same as the Hebrew Bible?
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Beyond a doubt Muslims and Jews are created by the same God who created Catholics, beyond a doubt the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God, and it is not for us to judge others, we should leave that to our Lord and Saviour.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Yes, Jesus was raised under the Old Testament Laws, but that was because part of his role post-incarnation was to live as the perfect man and fulfill the Law under our behalf. This is why arguing “Jesus was Jewish” is really just a non sequitor. Jesus may have been Jewish (again, in the sense that, during his lifetime, he followed the Mosaic customs and Laws), but that does not mean all Jews are exempt from disbelief or rejection of him as God the Son - again, refer back to the passages I brought up on the second page of this thread.
As for the Romans calling him “King of the Jews,” that was meant as an insult towards him, and if you study the story of the crucifixion you’ll find the Jews didn’t want him associated with that title (Jn 19:21-22).
Are you arguing that Jesus worshiped the Father separate from the Trinity? Because that appears to be how you are arguing - in fact, this kind of mentality is how Islam argues against the Trinity (ie., “If Jesus was God, who was he praying to?” etc.), and I think we do a disservice to the CAF community bringing it in here. It will lead to confusion and a stumbling block for many.
The fact is, Jesus was God the Son. He was YHWH. Those who have witnessed to Jehovah Witnesses know how important it is to prove that the divine name was attributed to Jesus Christ (let alone the Holy Spirit). We confuse categories and names if we ask whether or not Jesus really worshiped YHWH. This is why this kind of argumentation is so dangerous. And if you deny Jesus is YWHW, you deny YWHW.
That is completely irrelevant. Also, those who worshiped God in the Old Testament worshiped the Trinitarian God, not just God the Father. There are many passages where the preincarnate Son is seen, and though they were not aware of it because the fullness of the Trinitarian revelation was not seen, they still worshiped the Trinitarian God. By contrast, the revelation has been given, our salvation has been seen as through Christ alone, and under the new covenant which we are under, those who reject the Son will not have the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
G
Gaelic_Bard
Guest
Amen, brother.
S
sojo
Guest
I’m sad. I’m shocked. Our Church has truly failed in catechizing if there is one Catholic who does not understand that the Jewish people worship the true God, the same one the Catholics worship. I’m sorry also that some are so uneducated as to believe that the Muslims don’t likewise worship the same God of Abraham, but I understand the prejudice behind that belief.
Jesus was/is a Jew. He worshiped the one true God and he did so in a manner more perfect than any of us could achieve. He was so convincing and authoritative, that even as a young boy he held the elders in the temple speechless. Mary was also a Jew. So were the apostles. They didn’t stop worshiping the God they had always worshiped before and started worshiping a new God when Jesus died and rose again. They merely deepend their understanding of God.
As someone said, the inklings of the fullness of truth, explicit in the trinitarian belief (which, frankly, most or all of us still don’t understand in its entirety) exists in the Old Testaments. There are frequent references to the breath of God, which is translated in English as spirit, I believe. And of course the many references to the long awaited Messiah.
As for EWTN having a priest who spoke against Catholic teaching saying the Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God, I must think the poster misheard or misunderstood. Otherwise, the priest was speaking against the Church.
Jesus was/is a Jew. He worshiped the one true God and he did so in a manner more perfect than any of us could achieve. He was so convincing and authoritative, that even as a young boy he held the elders in the temple speechless. Mary was also a Jew. So were the apostles. They didn’t stop worshiping the God they had always worshiped before and started worshiping a new God when Jesus died and rose again. They merely deepend their understanding of God.
As someone said, the inklings of the fullness of truth, explicit in the trinitarian belief (which, frankly, most or all of us still don’t understand in its entirety) exists in the Old Testaments. There are frequent references to the breath of God, which is translated in English as spirit, I believe. And of course the many references to the long awaited Messiah.
As for EWTN having a priest who spoke against Catholic teaching saying the Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God, I must think the poster misheard or misunderstood. Otherwise, the priest was speaking against the Church.
R
Razanir
Guest
This is what I was trying to say
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
What was the difference between the Jews of the early church and the other Jews of that time, who were called a “crooked generation” (Acts 2:40)? They worshiped Christ as God. When Peter said “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12), that was a major stumbling block to unbelieving Jews. The “name” Peter referred to was the name of Christ, and he was making reference to a Jewish custom of the time of saying “The Name” rather than the holy name of God. To the unbelieving Jews, that was blasphemous, and most of them treated it accordingly.
As I said before, and from scripture, rejection of God the Son, within whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col 2:9), is rejection of God in toto. Not worshiping Christ as God, let alone identifying him as the apostle Thomas did with “my Lord and my God” (Jn 20:28), is not worshiping the true God.
As I said before, and from scripture, rejection of God the Son, within whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col 2:9), is rejection of God in toto. Not worshiping Christ as God, let alone identifying him as the apostle Thomas did with “my Lord and my God” (Jn 20:28), is not worshiping the true God.
P
PRmerger
Guest
To the degree that Muslims and Jews embrace the truth of God is the degree that they worship true God.
Just as we Catholics do not tell Baptists that the Jesus they worship is not the true Jesus, since Baptists reject the True Christ in the Eucharist, we also do not tell Jews and Muslims that they are not worshipping the true God.
- Status