Do Non-Catholics go to Heaven?

[Sir_Knight]

I asked if you reject the parts of the Catechism that say there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. It’s not up to me to connect the dots and assume what your answer would be. A simple “yes” or “no” will do.

Peace,
Anna

Was I quoting your post when I made that reply?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sorry. We must have posted at the same time. Thanks for the answer.

Peace,
Anna

Okay. Prosit.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,. . .

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
**
846** How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: . . . .

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
Link: vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs…23a9p3.htm#839
Sir Knight;8167175:

Yes. Since a Catholic ONLY separates himself from the faith if they reject the Catechism ***as a whole, ***

this means that Catholics can reject parts of the Catechism and remain in good standing with the Church (especially those parts which conflict with previously declared infallible teachings). . .

Sir Knight,

Those sections of the CCC (which I posted and you reject,) regarding salvation outside the CC, are based on infallible teachings, such as LUMEN GENTIUM.

Vatican Link: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
CHAPTER II
ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities.

Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. . . . .

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. . . . .

So, on what basis do you reject them?

Peace,
Anna

 

[Lui]

Does that mean you reject the parts of the Catechism that says there is salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Peace,
Anna

Yes.

Interesting. I bet not even the Pope holds this position but what does he know
We have the experts right here:thumbsup:

 

[Anna_Scott]

Interesting. I bet not even the Pope holds this position but what does he know
We have the experts right here:thumbsup:

Lui,
It seems not all Catholics agree on the issue of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

When researching Catholicism, I turn to Catholic sources; and there is no better source than the Vatican website.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Lui]

Lui,
It seems not all Catholics agree on the issue of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

When researching Catholicism, I turn to Catholic sources; and there is no better source than the Vatican website.

Peace,
Anna

Yes, so do I. I also asked many many priests about this who told me something different than what these Catholics say because I am concerned about friends and relatives who are either non-Catholic or non-believers which is why I find it disturbing to read claims that they will all go to Hell.

Thanks for your post.

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting. I bet not even the Pope holds this position but what does he know
We have the experts right here:thumbsup:

Indeed.

Reminds me of Patrick Madrid’s book, “More Catholic than the Pope.” :sad_yes:

http://www.catholicgifts.co.nz/images/more-catholic-than-the-popel.jpg

 

[stevekehl]

My understanding is that God will judge people who have never heard the Gospel based on how well they follow the law written on our hearts.
Romans 2:13-16 God accepts those who obey his Law, but not those who simply hear it. Some people naturally obey the Law’s commands, even though they don’t have the Law. This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned, when God appoints Jesus Christ to judge everyone’s secret thoughts, just as my message says.

Whatever the result, the Bible tells us that God’s decisions will be just.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Indeed.

Reminds me of Patrick Madrid’s book, “More Catholic than the Pope.” :sad_yes:

http://www.catholicgifts.co.nz/images/more-catholic-than-the-popel.jpg

PRmerger,

I read the 25 things about you and 3 Minute Apologetics. I’m really impressed.

Peace,
Anna (your friend who once defriended you and then refriended you. )

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight,

Those sections of the CCC (which I posted and you reject,) regarding salvation outside the CC, are based on infallible teachings, such as LUMEN GENTIUM.

Vatican Link: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
CHAPTER II
ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities.

Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. . . . .

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126)

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. . . . .

So, on what basis do you reject them?

Peace,
Anna

Given the fact that infallible Church doctrines and dogmas can not be changed or contradicted by future Popes, how do you explain the several infallible doctrines that I posted earlier which seem to conflict with what you have posted?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Interesting. I bet not even the Pope holds this position but what does he know
We have the experts right here:thumbsup:

That is a bet that you would have lost …
“the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation” – Pope Benedict XVI (Reference).

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

I read the 25 things about you and 3 Minute Apologetics. I’m really impressed.

Oh, pshaw! shaw:

Peace,
Anna (your friend who once defriended you and then refriended you. )

Yes, I remember.

And I think I remember one of your first posts here where you noted that you had been on a Christian forum and had been banned/counseled for sounding “too Catholic”, even though you’re a non-Catholic.

And, as I’m typing this I’m smiling because I also remember a funny post you made where you were in the middle of a thread, going back and forth with others, and then suddenly everyone went offline, and you posted something like, “What happened? Did the Rapture happen and I missed it?” That was LOL funny!

 

[Lui]

That is a bet that you would have lost …
“the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation” – Pope Benedict XVI (Reference).

So the Pope believes that ALL non-Catholics go to Hell? Not even the Bible tells you that non-Christians necessarily go to Hell.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Lui,
It seems not all Catholics agree on the issue of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

When researching Catholicism, I turn to Catholic sources; and there is no better source than the Vatican website.

Peace,
Anna

So if it isn’t on the Vatican website, you don’t accept it? I can’t seem to find any Encyclicals on there prior to 2005. Does that mean that all of those written prior to that are null and void?

I turn your attention to the “The Sources of Catholic Dogma” which I quoted from. It is printed with Church approval and you can obtain your own personal copy HERE if you want to verify what I quoted for you.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So the Pope believes that ALL non-Catholics go to Hell? Not even the Bible tells you that non-Christians necessarily go to Hell.

Let’s try this one more time. Did or did not Jesus teach that WHATEVER the Church bound on earth WOULD BE bound in heaven? Have I not presented you with SEVERAL infallible declarations that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (infallible declaration by Pope Innocent III in 1215AD) and that in order to be saved, a person must be entirely subject to the Pope (infallible declaration by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302AD)?

What part of this are you not getting?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Oh, pshaw! shaw:

Yes, I remember.

And I think I remember one of your first posts here where you noted that you had been on a Christian forum and had been banned/counseled for sounding “too Catholic”, even though you’re a non-Catholic.

And, as I’m typing this I’m smiling because I also remember a funny post you made where you were in the middle of a thread, going back and forth with others, and then suddenly everyone went offline, and you posted something like, “What happened? Did the Rapture happen and I missed it?” That was LOL funny!

PRmerger,

: You have a very good memory. lol. I remember that night. I was posting and a lot of people were online. Then suddenly everyone was gone, but me. It was eerie.

There was once a thread called something like: what would happen if the Catholic Church disappeared tomorrow. I said there would be a whole lot of Protestants worried they missed the Rapture.

And yes, I was permanently banned from BaptistBoard. They claimed I was a “Catholic troll.” I hadn’t left the Baptist Church at that time. They said I lied about being Baptist to get on their Baptist forum and promote a Catholic agenda (paraphrased to excluded all the terrible things they said about me.)

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

So if it isn’t on the Vatican website, you don’t accept it? I can’t seem to find any Encyclicals on there prior to 2005. Does that mean that all of those written prior to that are null and void?

I turn your attention to the “The Sources of Catholic Dogma” which I quoted from. It is printed with Church approval and you can obtain your own personal copy HERE if you want to verify what I quoted for you.

I didn’t say the Vatican website was my only source.

Let’s try this one more time. Did or did not Jesus teach that WHATEVER the Church bound on earth WOULD BE bound in heaven? Have I not presented you with SEVERAL infallible declarations that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (infallible declaration by Pope Innocent III in 1215AD) and that in order to be saved, a person must be entirely subject to the Pope (infallible declaration by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302AD)?

What part of this are you not getting?

Given the fact that infallible Church doctrines and dogmas can not be changed or contradicted by future Popes, how do you explain the several infallible doctrines that I posted earlier which seem to conflict with what you have posted?

Sir Knight,

You posted infallible teachings of the CC, and I posted infallible teachings of the CC. If they seem to contradict each another, it would seem like Catholics should be explaining what this means and how they fit together, rather than the other way around.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . Have I not presented you with SEVERAL infallible declarations that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (infallible declaration by Pope Innocent III in 1215AD) and that in order to be saved, a person must be entirely subject to the Pope (infallible declaration by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302AD)?

What part of this are you not getting?

Sir Knight,

Actually, I am getting it. Your quotes clearly state there is no salvation outside the CC–period, end of story.

My quotes from LUMEN GENTIUM give exceptions.

We both quoted infallible teachings, that do seem contradictory. I went through a long and exhausting discussion of these apparent contradictions on another thread entitled,

"What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?"
Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8077588#post8077588

Partial Quote from my Post #245:

Pope St. Pius X: “Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.”” (Acerbo Nimis)

Pope Pius XI: “Behold how many souls are lost every hour! Behold the countless millions of those who live in barbarous regions and do not know Jesus Christ!” (Raccolta 628)

The Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, replied: “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned.”

Council of Florence, ex cathedra: “The Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church.”

Pope Pius XII: “O Mary Mother of Mercy and Refuge of Sinners! We beseech thee to look with pitying eyes on poor heretics and schismatics. Do thou, who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found.” (The Raccolta, 1957, No. 626. The prayer was also indulgenced by Pope Pius IX.)

How are the above quotes compatible with your claim that “invincible ignorance” has always been taught by the CC?

Partial Quote from my Post #297:

. . . .If Pope Eugene IV’s statement, “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her” is infallible, where is there any room for an exception? . . .

Partial quote of my Post #333:

Question #1: Is Unam Sanctam, which declares, proclaims, and defines that “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” an infallible teaching?

Question #2: If Unam Sanctam is infallible, did Pope Boniface VIII infallibly define any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC?

Question #3: If Pope Boniface VIII did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” infallibly defined?

Since, Pope Eugene IV seems to be saying the same thing, only more sternly; I think it is fair to ask the same questions about the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441.

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; . . . . (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Question #4: Is the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441 infallible?

Question #5: If it is infallible, did Pope Eugene IV infallibly define any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC? I can’t imagine that he did. Who is left after “pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are professed to be headed into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with the CC.

**Question #6: **If Pope Eugene IV did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” infallibly defined?

How did the Catholic Church go from “No salvation outside the Catholic Church” to the exceptions given in the Catechism and other places?

See my response to GaryTaylor’s answers to 6 questions: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567953&page=23 scroll down to Post #336.

I received all sorts of criticism from Catholics on that thread–all because I pointed out the fact that the infallible teachings seem to be contradictory—which is what you, a Catholic, are also claiming.

Confused, once again,
Anna

 

[Sir_Knight]

Now that you and I are on the same page with even further proof, we need to get somebody to explain how current teaching SEEMS to contradict previously infallible teaching when no infallible teaching can be changed or contradicted.

 

[Lui]

Let’s try this one more time. Did or did not Jesus teach that WHATEVER the Church bound on earth WOULD BE bound in heaven? Have I not presented you with SEVERAL infallible declarations that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (infallible declaration by Pope Innocent III in 1215AD) and that in order to be saved, a person must be entirely subject to the Pope (infallible declaration by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302AD)?

What part of this are you not getting?

To be honest I personally don’t think a forum is the place I would ask my questions about really important theological issues like Salvation. That’s like getting medical advice for a serious illness by people who “studied” medicine through Wikipedia.
I speak with people who have actually studied and practice medicine when I have a serious medical problem. For cold remedies or a mild headache I can ask people on the internet.

The same goes with questions regarding salvation. I ask people who actually studied theology and practice it. The danger of listening to the advice of people who haven’t really studied theology is that they might mix things up or not really understand teachings the way the Church actually teaches it.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. For me it’s your personal opinion but nothing else.