Do Non-Catholics go to Heaven?

[Anna_Scott]

Now that you and I are on the same page with even further proof, we need to get somebody to explain how current teaching SEEMS to contradict previously infallible teaching when no infallible teaching can be changed or contradicted.

Sir Knight,

Did you get a chance to look at the posts from the other thread I linked? Just wondering what your impression is of the arguments made by Catholics that all infallible teachings regarding salvation outside the CC fit together.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2 to Sir Knight

Now that you and I are on the same page with even further proof, we need to get somebody to explain how current teaching SEEMS to contradict previously infallible teaching when no infallible teaching can be changed or contradicted.

Sir Knight,

Did you get a chance to look at the posts from the other thread I linked? Just wondering what your impression is of the arguments made by Catholics that all infallible teachings regarding salvation outside the CC fit together.

Peace,
Anna

Sir Knight,

You are not the only Catholic to question how LUMEN GENTIUM is consistent with "Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

Of course, I am not a Catholic in Communion with Rome. So, I do believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, my biggest concern is that I still cannot reconcile LUMEN GENTIUM with "Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus). There are many wonderful things in the Catholic faith. The infallibility issue is one of the main reasons I haven’t converted to Catholicism.

Catholicism.org seems to be dedicated to defending "Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus). This is an "Online Journal edited by the Slaves the Immaculate Heart of Mary, St. Benedict Center, N.H."
**
Our Status in the Church:** Link: catholicism.org/our-status-in-the-church.html

Doctrinal Summary: Link: catholicism.org/doctrinalsummary.html

The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV: Link: catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

Zenit Interviews Theologian on Non-Believers’ Salvation: Link: catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation
Link: catholicism.org/zenit-morali.html#more-535

The Fathers of the Church on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus: Link: catholicism.org/eens-fathers.html

**Outside the Church there is no Salvation (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus): **Link: catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

Continued–Part 2 Next Post

 

[Anna_Scott]

Continued—Part 2 of 2 to Sir Knight

The Popes on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus: Link: catholicism.org/eens-popes.html.

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia )

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum )

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter )

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus )

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae )

**Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): **“It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane )

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum )

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos )

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Extraordinary Magisterium. . .

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

The question is, how can all of this be reconciled with Lumen Gentium, which gives exceptions to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus?

Peace,
Anna

 

[GaryTaylor]

QUOTE Pope Pius IX

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin. {EWTN-link}

Have you read this CAF link with the early church fathers and Catholic definitions?

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7haAMjBOq20ACARXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZXRsNXQ0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDAyNl8xNDc-/SIG=12ke9jg76/EXP=1311803104/**http%3a//www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

… the church is an institution which is subject to the control of the bishop who pardons or retains sins by divine authority and by his own sovereign judgment. The bishop is lord over the faith and life of the people by virtue of an absolute supremacy divinely bestowed upon him…Bishop Callistus 217-222 AD

 

[Anna_Scott]

QUOTE Pope Pius IX

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin. {EWTN-link}

Have you read this CAF link with the early church fathers and Catholic definitions?

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7haAMjBOq20ACARXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZXRsNXQ0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDAyNl8xNDc-/SIG=12ke9jg76/EXP=1311803104/**http%3a//www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

… the church is an institution which is subject to the control of the bishop who pardons or retains sins by divine authority and by his own sovereign judgment. The bishop is lord over the faith and life of the people by virtue of an absolute supremacy divinely bestowed upon him…Bishop Callistus 217-222 AD

Anyway hers’s and idea on history of this teaching which is infallible and is also V-II doctrine.

GaryTaylor,
Since, I’ve been through this discussion before; I’ll leave this for Catholics to sort out. Maybe you can help Sir Knight understand the Catholic view regarding how all these infallible teachings fit together.

I remain unconvinced that Lumen Gentium is compatible with extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Signing off (for real ),

Peace,
Anna

 

[jmcrae]

Does that mean you reject the parts of the Catechism that says there is salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Peace,
Anna

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church - however, the Catholic Church can be larger than just the institutional Church (in fact we know it is, since we know that all of the Saints and Angels, and everyone who is in Purgatory, are members of it, even though they are not living in parishes here on earth) - however, those who find themselves in invisible and partial communion while still here on the earth, if they want to be saved, should do whatever they can to get into visible and full communion with the Church (which is the same thing as being in full communion with Jesus Christ, since the Catholic Church is His body here on earth).

As soon as a person begins to think that he might be saved by invincible ignorance, his ignorance is no longer invincible - he knows that there is something there to be learned, and he is capable of learning it - and he therefore can no longer claim that his lack of membership in the visible church is due to invincible ignorance. He can do something about his situation - and therefore, he should.

 

[ddarko]

Now that you and I are on the same page with even further proof, we need to get somebody to explain how current teaching SEEMS to contradict previously infallible teaching when no infallible teaching can be changed or contradicted.

GaryTaylor,
Since, I’ve been through this discussion before; I’ll leave this for Catholics to sort out. Maybe you can help Sir Knight understand the Catholic view regarding how all these infallible teachings fit together.

I remain unconvinced that Lumen Gentium is compatible with extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Signing off (for real ),

Peace,
Anna

I think perhaps you have made a mistake that the Sedevecantist and many others have made assuming that the Church has always taught that salvation is only possible if one is an official member of the Catholic.

But that is false. As early as 151 AD, Justin Martyr says the following:-

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46)"

But what all church fathers, Pope’s and Bishops condemned with authority were heretics and schismatics (as can be seen in many of the quotes from Pope’s and councils provided by Sir Knight and you yourself Anna, in previous posts).

In short, the way to understand the Catholic Dogma is that it is church, united to the mystical body of Christ that dispenses the grace of salvation. It can be through prayers, through evangelizing, etc. This does not mean that non-Catholics are withheld the graces by the church.

In a sense this is like the doctrine that No-one can reach the father unless through Christ. The doctrine does not state that we have to pray to Jesus first before we address the father. It merely means that when we pray directly to the father, Jesus mediates for us and it is only because he mediates that our prayers are heard.

So with the church, when someone non-Catholic does some good, it is because of the grace given to them by Christ through the Catholic Church that leads them to these good works and hence to salvation.

Also, the following will provide some more information:-

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

In short, there is no contradiction/incompatibility with Lumen Gentium and extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The problem is that many do not interpret extra ecclesiam nulla salus correctly according to Catholic teaching.

As you can see, from the early Church it-self, the Catholic teaching has never been interpreted to mean “one needs to officially belong to the Catholic Church”. Rather, it has been that Salvation is through the Catholic Church alone.

God Bless

 

[Laura_Botimer]

After reading the posts I am confused more about what the Catholic Church teaches on this question. I agree that there is no salvation outside of faith in Jesus Christ, as he is explained and confirmed in the Apostles Creed. But are you saying that there is not salvation outside of the Catholic Church? I am so sad that the Catholic Church was torn at the Reformation, and now the Protestant Church is broken further into tiny groups. But I still believe that God is the Judge of hearts and knows who belongs to Him, whether they are part of the Catholic Church or not. We do find unity in Christ and in the Creed, but I long for the day when there is true unity. Can that happen? Oh please, Lord, help us to obey your command and desire for Oneness, as your Father and You are one.

 

[ddarko]

After reading the posts I am confused more about what the Catholic Church teaches on this question. I agree that there is no salvation outside of faith in Jesus Christ, as he is explained and confirmed in the Apostles Creed. But are you saying that there is not salvation outside of the Catholic Church? I am so sad that the Catholic Church was torn at the Reformation, and now the Protestant Church is broken further into tiny groups. But I still believe that God is the Judge of hearts and knows who belongs to Him, whether they are part of the Catholic Church or not. We do find unity in Christ and in the Creed, but I long for the day when there is true unity. Can that happen? Oh please, Lord, help us to obey your command and desire for Oneness, as your Father and You are one.

Friend,

Rest assured, all you need to do is try your best to seek the truth and do Good.

What Salvation through the Catholic church alone means is that when you receive any graces towards salvation, it has been received through the Catholic Church.

So while Protestants, Buddhists, Muslims etc maybe non-Catholics, they will be given graces by Christ to do good through the Catholic Church. Thus, they will be saved through the Catholic Church as long as they strive to do GOOD and seek God and the truth to the best of their ability.

I am not sure if you missed my above post, I explained a bit more detailed there.

Did that make sense?

God Bless

 

[lao_tzu]

What are your thought?

Well, yes and no. Baptists, for instance, end up in their own walled garden, to keep them from suspecting that Catholics get in, too.

 

[PRmerger]

After reading the posts I am confused more about what the Catholic Church teaches on this question. I agree that there is no salvation outside of faith in Jesus Christ, as he is explained and confirmed in the Apostles Creed. But are you saying that there is not salvation outside of the Catholic Church? I am so sad that the Catholic Church was torn at the Reformation, and now the Protestant Church is broken further into tiny groups. But I still believe that God is the Judge of hearts and knows who belongs to Him, whether they are part of the Catholic Church or not. We do find unity in Christ and in the Creed, but I long for the day when there is true unity. Can that happen? Oh please, Lord, help us to obey your command and desire for Oneness, as your Father and You are one.

I answer with, “Strive to enter.”

God is not a statistician who has given us the demographics of hell.

He tells us to strive to enter, and that the gate is narrow.

Outside of the Church there is no salvation is simply another manifestation of Jesus’ statement that outside of Him there is no salvation.

 

[Sir_Knight]

QUOTE Pope Pius IX

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin. {EWTN-link}

I, again, refer you to the infallible teaching of Pope Eugenius IV, at the Council of Florence in 1442 A.D. – “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock”

What exactly is a pagan? Someone who has not been exposed to the truth. Why would those “innocent of the truths of Catholicism” during the time of Pope Eugenius IV be destined to everlasting fire but those who are “innocent of the truths of Catholicism” during the time of Pope Pius IX be considered invincibly ignorant?

Is this something that we would expect from and ALL-just God? Additionally, ignorance is, in fact, a sin in and of itself because the bible tells us that nothing but sin deserves punishment and 1 Corinthians 14:38 tells us that ignorance deserves punishment. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that ignorance is also a sin.
Leviticus 5:17 … "*If any one sin, and do any of the things which Jehovah hath commanded not to be done, though he knew it not, yet IS he guilty, and SHALL bear his iniquity."*

Have you read this CAF link with the early church fathers and Catholic definitions?

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7haAMjBOq20ACARXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZXRsNXQ0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDAyNl8xNDc-/SIG=12ke9jg76/EXP=1311803104/**http%3a//www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

Linkie no workie.

 

[ddarko]

I, again, refer you to the infallible teaching of Pope Eugenius IV, at the Council of Florence in 1442 A.D. – “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock”.

Excellent question.

So the quote here again highlights what I said. The Pope is condemning those who live as pagans (i.e. in the context of that time, refers to those who engage in immoral acts), schismatics and heretics. They of course will loose salvation.

He is not however condemning those who are not officially part of the Catholic Church.

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

In short, the way to understand the Catholic Dogma is that it is church, united to the mystical body of Christ that dispenses the grace of salvation. It can be through prayers, through evangelizing, etc. This does not mean that non-Catholics are withheld the graces by the church.

Indeed.

The Feast of the Holy Innocents is testament to this. None of these Holy Ones were baptized into the Catholic faith, yet the Church has declared them to be in heaven, eh?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Excellent question.

So the quote here again highlights what I said. The Pope is condemning those who live as pagans (i.e. in the context of that time, refers to those who engage in immoral acts), schismatics and heretics. They of course will loose salvation.

He is not however condemning those who are not officially part of the Catholic Church.

Actually, he is. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Paganism includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God.

Also, note the wording …

“It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock”

… he doesn’t declare that salvation comes from the Catholic Church but that those who are “not living within the Catholic Church” will not be saved. Unless they become part of the flock, they will be banished to eternal fire.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Indeed.

The Feast of the Holy Innocents is testament to this. None of these Holy Ones were baptized into the Catholic faith, yet the Church has declared them to be in heaven, eh?

Those who were killed, were under the old law because Jesus established the new and ever-lasting covenant with His death on the cross.

 

[Sir_Knight]

To be honest I personally don’t think a forum is the place I would ask my questions about really important theological issues like Salvation. That’s like getting medical advice for a serious illness by people who “studied” medicine through Wikipedia.
I speak with people who have actually studied and practice medicine when I have a serious medical problem. For cold remedies or a mild headache I can ask people on the internet.

The same goes with questions regarding salvation. I ask people who actually studied theology and practice it. The danger of listening to the advice of people who haven’t really studied theology is that they might mix things up or not really understand teachings the way the Church actually teaches it.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. For me it’s your personal opinion but nothing else.

If you go to someone who “studied theology and practice it” and they tell you that adultery is not a sin when the bible clearly says that it is, are you going to blindly believe him because he “studied theology and practice it”? I would hope not.

So, why would you blindly accept his opinion when he tells you something which conflicts with OFFICIALLY declared INFALLIBLE Church teaching?

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

VivaCristoRey27,
It seems more likely that one, on their death bed, would call upon the name of Christ, acknowledging Him as the Son of God, and author of our salvation, and in true repentance ask forgiveness of their sins–rather than praying, I’m sorry I rejected the authority of the Pope and the Catholic Church; I know I cannot be saved unless I am subject to the Pope. So, please, God, make me subject to the Pope and his teachings–make me “Catholic” so I can receive salvation.

Peace,
Anna

But if someone truly wishes to do the Will of God, then they would at the very least implicitly reject their heresies.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

Sir Knight,

You posted infallible teachings of the CC, and I posted infallible teachings of the CC. If they seem to contradict each another, it would seem like Catholics should be explaining what this means and how they fit together, rather than the other way around.

Peace,
Anna

Didn’t you only quote “Lumen Gentium”? There are no infallible dogmatic definitions made in that document.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

I think perhaps you have made a mistake that the Sedevecantist and many others have made assuming that the Church has always taught that salvation is only possible if one is an official member of the Catholic.

If the mistake in question is Feeneyism, there are both sedevacantists and non-sedevacantists on both sides of the issue. Sedevacantism is an unrelated issue.