Do Non-Catholics go to Heaven?

[KathleenGee]

Ddarko…appreciate your response to our beloved Anna…she is a true dear!!

 

[ConstantineTG]

There are many Orthodox saints!

 

[Lui]

If you go to someone who “studied theology and practice it” and they tell you that adultery is not a sin when the bible clearly says that it is, are you going to blindly believe him because he “studied theology and practice it”? I would hope not.

So, why would you blindly accept his opinion when he tells you something which conflicts with OFFICIALLY declared INFALLIBLE Church teaching?

I rather trust the opinion of someone who actually studied and understands theology than from someone who might read the Bible, Church Teachings etc and misinterpret them. From someone I’ve never met on the internet I know nothing. What qualifications does this person have to be an authority on Church Teachings? How should I know? Why should I blindly accept this person’s opinion?

Btw, the Bible clearly says that pagans can go to Heaven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I rather trust the opinion of someone who actually studied and understands theology than from someone who might read the Bible, Church Teachings etc and misinterpret them. From someone I’ve never met on the internet I know nothing. What qualifications does this person have to be an authority on Church Teachings? How should I know? Why should I blindly accept this person’s opinion?

Do you know what a fallacy is? A fallacy is an error in reasoning. There are 42 formal logic fallicies. One of them is “Ad Verecundiam”. Which, is defined as an appeal to authority and it goes like this …

1. Person A is an authority on subject B.
2. Person A makes claim C about subject B.

1. Therefore, C is true.

Just because somebody is an authority on something does not automaticly mean that what they say on that topic is always true. I’m not telling you to blindly follow someone on the internet but neither should you blindly follow someone who is telling you something which clearly contradicts established teachings.

Btw, the Bible clearly says that pagans can go to Heaven.

Wrong. Jesus, Himself, clearly said in Mark 16:16 – " … Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned … ".

And exactly what is a pagan? According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, a pagan is someone who does not believe in the one true religion revealed by God.

It’s kind of hard to “misinterpret” this. Jesus is saying that you have to BELIEVE in the one true faith AND you have to formally ENTER into that faith, otherwise you will be condemned. If someone comes along and tells you that one does not have to believe in order to be saved, I would question that no matter how much of an authority the person may be because he is clearly saying something which conflicts with what Jesus said. They would have to explain how their position can be correct when Jesus is saying the exact opposite. In like fashion, the OFFICIALLY declared Church teachings say one thing, I would question anyone who said something which contradicts those positions.

But hey, if you want to BLINDLY follow those in authority, that’s your business but you better hope that they are leading you down the correct path because, as I explained earlier, ignorance will not be an excuse. Ignorance is, in fact, a sin in and of itself because the bible tells us that nothing but sin deserves punishment and 1 Corinthians 14:38 tells us that ignorance deserves punishment. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that ignorance is also a sin.
Leviticus 5:17 … "*If any one sin, and do any of the things which Jehovah hath commanded not to be done, though he knew it not, yet IS he guilty, and SHALL bear his iniquity."*

 

[Jim_Roberts]

No I didn’t. I like to study things on my free time but I never took an actual class.

---

Yes, non Cathoic can go to heaven and it depends on the lifstyle they had . If someone is abusive, then, God will take care of that, or if they commited other things against the church.
In reality, this question would have to be left in God’s hands; only He knows what a person did or di not to do.

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU

 

[jnewaz]

Only Catholics go to heaven. If we understand “Catholic” as being the Universal Body of Christ. The extent to which a person is “Catholic” is defined by the teachings of the Church. Those who have not even heard the Gospel, who live lives according to their god-given sense of morality, and who strive to seek the truth, are Catholic in the sense that they are seeking God. And God is, in my opinion, a Catholic God.

So do non-catholics go to heaven? No.

Are there non-catholics in heaven? No.

Are there non-catholics on earth who during the course of their lives, strive for the truth, and after their death (and perhaps through the purification of Purgatory) receive a Baptism of Desire and become Catholic? Yes.

The last question can be rewritten as:

Is God a Merciful and Understanding Being? Yes.

 

[Lui]

Just because somebody is an authority on something does not automaticly mean that what they say on that topic is always true. I’m not telling you to blindly follow someone on the internet but neither should you blindly follow someone who is telling you something which clearly contradicts established teachings.

You’re making assumptions. How do you know that I follow someone “blindly” who contradicts church teachings? How to you know that the priests I talk to contradict the church teachings?? I also didn’t accuse you telling me to blindly follow someone on the internet. I just made a statement why I wish not to follow you. It has nothing to do if you’re right or wrong. It has to do with the fact that I can’t judge if you’re right or wrong, just based on the fact that you joined a Catholic forum. I don’t understand why you need to question my position.

But hey, if you want to BLINDLY follow those in authority, that’s your business but you better hope that they are leading you down the correct path because, as I explained earlier, ignorance will not be an excuse.

I hope your assumptions, arrogance and pride won’t lead you down the wrong path.

Wrong. Jesus, Himself, clearly said in Mark 16:16 – " … Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned … ".

]

What about people who live in the amazon forest and have never heard of the gospel?

"Do all non-Catholics go to Hell?" Answer “NO”:
sspeterandpaul.net/apologetics/do_non-catholics_go_hell.pdf

 

[jnewaz]

What about people who live in the amazon forest and have never heard of the gospel?

How do you feel about my explanation a post or two above?

I hold the belief that non-catholics do not go to heaven.

 

[Lui]

How do you feel about my explanation a post or two above?

I hold the belief that non-catholics do not go to heaven.

Read the page of the link I posted on my previous post.

You wrote:

Only Catholics go to heaven. If we understand “Catholic” as being the Universal Body of Christ. The extent to which a person is “Catholic” is defined by the teachings of the Church. Those who have not even heard the Gospel, who live lives according to their god-given sense of morality, and who strive to seek the truth, are Catholic in the sense that they are seeking God. And God is, in my opinion, a Catholic God.

In Romans 2:12-16 it says:
“12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

I, again, refer you to the infallible teaching of Pope Eugenius IV, at the Council of Florence in 1442 A.D. – “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock”

What exactly is a pagan? Someone who has not been exposed to the truth. Why would those “innocent of the truths of Catholicism” during the time of Pope Eugenius IV be destined to everlasting fire but those who are “innocent of the truths of Catholicism” during the time of Pope Pius IX be considered invincibly ignorant?

Is this something that we would expect from and ALL-just God? Additionally, ignorance is, in fact, a sin in and of itself because the bible tells us that nothing but sin deserves punishment and 1 Corinthians 14:38 tells us that ignorance deserves punishment. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that ignorance is also a sin.
Leviticus 5:17 … "*If any one sin, and do any of the things which Jehovah hath commanded not to be done, though he knew it not, yet IS he guilty, and SHALL bear his iniquity."*

Linkie no workie.

Link works “if” you read it, it states “CLICK HERE!”

The infallible teaching of Pope Eugenius IV, at the Council of Florence in 1442 A.D in regards to No Salvation, did not come from Pope Eugenius IV so why would you mention this to me as of some importance?? No Salvation is as Old as the CC. The “only” statement in Pope Eugenius IV Bull which is infallible he borrows and applies it to His period in time. No different than has been done with No-Salvation with others such as Pope Pius IX.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight,

Did you get a chance to look at the posts from the other thread I linked? Just wondering what your impression is of the arguments made by Catholics that all infallible teachings regarding salvation outside the CC fit together.

Peace,
Anna

Yes, I saw that link and wanted to get involved in the discussion but unfortunately the thread was closed. Too bad because it was heading in a direction that I would have been interested in discussing.

 

[ddarko]

Actually, he is. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Paganism includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God.

Also, note the wording …

“It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock”

… he doesn’t declare that salvation comes from the Catholic Church but that those who are “not living within the Catholic Church” will not be saved. Unless they become part of the flock, they will be banished to eternal fire.

I think this rather simple issue. All you have to do Sir Knight is give full assent to the church.

The church has spoken on how to interpret it’s teaching. Infallibility of the Church means that this is true. The possible contradiction you see is just because you are human and fallible. The church has even excommunicated (Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J who actually accepted the error and came back to the church about 40 years later) those who held the position that no one will be saved if they are not officially Catholic.

So I think the solution to your problem is to give full assent to the Church. Whether you understand the matter or not is irrelevant. The church has spoken by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We listen to her in matters we both understand and do not understand to the end of time.

Read my Post 114 as well if you missed it since it has some more detailed information on how to reconcile the differences.

God Bless

 

[jnewaz]

Read the page of the link I posted on my previous post.

You wrote:

In Romans 2:12-16 it says:
“12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”

I feel that your bible verse supports what I wrote.

Am I missing something? Or do we have a misunderstanding?

I am suggesting that non-Catholics who go to heaven, are the “gentiles” you are referring to via Romans. Those who do not have the law, but follow the conscience which is a god-given law?

 

[Lui]

I feel that your bible verse supports what I wrote.

Am I missing something? Or do we have a misunderstanding?

I am suggesting that non-Catholics who go to heaven, are the “gentiles” you are referring to via Romans. Those who do not have the law, but follow the conscience which is a god-given law?

Yes, I was agreeing with you that’s why I posted Romans 2:12-16. Earlier in one of my posts I mentioned that the Bible says that even pagans(with pagans I mean what the Bible calls gentiles) can go to heaven(which Sir Knight rejects), I was referring to Romans 2:12-16.

 

[jnewaz]

Yes, I was agreeing with you that’s why I posted Romans 2:12-16. Earlier in one of my posts I mentioned that the Bible says that even pagans(with pagans I meant what the Bible calls gentiles) can go to heaven(which Sir Knight rejects), I was referring to Romans 2:12-16.

Ah okay, so we are in agreement. Good.

The Catholic Church is the definitive road to heaven. But other roads merge onto this road, through the course of human life, and via the compass of our god given conscience.

 

[Lui]

Ah okay, so we are in agreement. Good.

The Catholic Church is the definitive road to heaven. But other roads merge onto this road, through the course of human life, and via the compass of our god given conscience.

I find this very interesting posted on this website:
"No Salvation Outside the Church

By Fr. Ray Ryland

Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is “no salvation outside the Church”? Doesn’t this contradict Scripture? God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978."
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

This is why I wrote earlier:

I rather trust the opinion of someone who actually studied and understands theology than from someone who might read the Bible, Church Teachings etc and misinterpret them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Latin phrase “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” translates to “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.

Its included in the V-II Doctrine Lumen Gentium and it is infallible.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (Lumin Gentium).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260

{Also from CAF}

Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.

The Church speaks of “implicit desire” or “longing” that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with “a sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

NEVERTHELESS…

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it ( LG 14).
The Catholic Church is “the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time” (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”

Anyway…

Defining what others actually believe in their mind is a futile attempt and in fact impossible. No-One is capible of reading minds, not even the Catholic Church elect, which seems to be used as an authority here on Pagans. A “pagan” in 1400 has little to do with many who consider themselves “pagans” today. How all this works out on an individual level is as different as each individual is.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Sir_Knight]

Link works “if” you read it, it states “CLICK HERE!”

The infallible teaching of Pope Eugenius IV, at the Council of Florence in 1442 A.D in regards to No Salvation, did not come from Pope Eugenius IV so why would you mention this to me as of some importance?? No Salvation is as Old as the CC. The “only” statement in Pope Eugenius IV Bull which is infallible he borrows and applies it to His period in time. No different than has been done with No-Salvation with others such as Pope Pius IX.

There ARE official Church Dogmas that I have been referencing … catholiccompany.com/images/product/1111195.jpg

- Catholic writing of Saint Matthew 7:22-23 … (regarding heretics) > “Many will say to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in Thy name, and cast out devils in Thy name, and done many miracles in Thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity.”

• Heretics doing works - but not keeping the Catholic faith - are still thrown into Hell for heresy.

**- Clement of Rome, died c. 100 A.D. > **Affirmed the permanency of death as separation and the impossibility of meriting or losing merit after death.

**- Dogmatic Athanasius Creed, c. 370 A.D. – Ex-Cathedra Dogma > **“This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.”

**- Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 29 January 1336 > **“We define that the souls of all the Saints who have left this life soon after individual death are or will be in Heaven and have eternal life; in addition we define that the souls of those dying in actual mortal sin soon after individual death descend into Hell.”

• Anyone who dies outside the Catholic Church dies in a state of mortal sin against the First Commandment, worshiping a false God. Heretics (“lutherans”, “mentodists”, “baptists”, “vatican-2-ists”, “pentecostals”, etc.) and un-baptized pagans (“jews”, “mohammedans”, “hindus”, “buddhists”, etc.) descend into Hell from the very spot on which they die.

**- Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 8, Exultate Deo, 22 Nov 1439 – Ex-Cathedra Dogma > **“Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the Church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

• You must enter the gate of the spiritual life … water baptism … before death.

**- Council of Florence, Session 6, 1439 A.D. – Ex-Cathedra Dogma > **“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in Original Sin alone, go down straightaway to Hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

• Anyone who dies outside the Catholic Church dies in a state of mortal sin against the First Commandment, worshiping a false God. God is the Catholic Jesus Christ, the false “Jesus Christs” that the heretics have dreamt up do not even exist … all heretics are “praying” to thin air.

… Continued in NEXT Post ***

 

[Sir_Knight]

*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post …

**- Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, 1442 A.D. – Ex-Cathedra Dogma > **“It (the Catholic Church) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives.”

**- Council of Trent, Seventh Session, Baptism Section, Canon 8 – Ex-Cathedra Dogma > **“If anyone says that those baptized are free from all the precepts of holy Church, whether written or unwritten, so that they are not bound to observe them unless they should wish to submit to them of their own accord, let him be anathema.”

• Baptized heretics are not free from all the other Dogmas of the Catholic Church. Rejecting some portion of the truth until death lands them in Hell. No one can merit (and become Catholic) after they die.

**- Dogmatic Athanasius Creed – Ex-Cathedra Dogma > **“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”

• If a man did not hold the Catholic Faith at the time of his death, we cannot say that somehow he can hold it after he has died.

**- Pope Pius IX, 1846-1878 A.D. > **“It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.”

• One cannot conjecture that: someone who dies outside the Catholic Church might be in Heaven (they’re not).

**-Pope Pius IX, 1846-1878 A.D. > **“Let us hold firmly to our Catholic doctrine: one God, one Faith, one Baptism. To try to inquire further is sinful.”

• One of the favorite ways to “inquire further” concerning the Salvation Dogma, is to state “we don’t know where” a soul is that dies outside the Catholic Church. We do know: it is in Hell.

**- Pope Pius X, 1903-1914 A.D. > **“That a scholar is not to be censured if he constructs premises from which it follows that Dogmas are false or doubtful, if he does not directly deny the dogmas themselves, is condemned as error.”

• A popular way to doubt the Dogma on Salvation is to say “We don’t know where Ralph or Harry Heretic is.” after he has died. Pope Pius X has condemned this type of illicit statement because its premise casts doubt on the Salvation Dogma of God the Holy Spirit.

**- De Fide Catholic Dogma, Dogma Section VI, The Catholic Church, Dogma 20 ** “Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.”

• The Catholic Church is in three locations: the world, Purgatory, and Heaven. If you are not in the Catholic Church in this world you will not be joined to the Church in Purgatory or in Heaven after you die. One cannot enter the Catholic Church after he dies. Whoever dies non-Catholic in this world will descend into Hell … for dying in an unjustified state, in heresy or apostasy.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I think this rather simple issue. All you have to do Sir Knight is give full assent to the church.

“full access” to the Church means NOT ignoring the teaching that are part of the Church’s history as I have not done but something which you did.

The church has spoken on how to interpret it’s teaching. Infallibility of the Church means that this is true.

You betcha and when several Popes have declared something to be true, that remains true today just as much so as it did back then.

The possible contradiction you see is just because you are human and fallible.

Just as human and fallible as you.

The church has even excommunicated (Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J who actually accepted the error and came back to the church about 40 years later) those who held the position that no one will be saved if they are not officially Catholic.

And, let’s not forget that he did not have to change his position in order to come back. If he was wrong and he was excommunicated for being wrong, why would he be allowed back if he continued to hold on to that “wrong” position?

So I think the solution to your problem is to give full assent to the Church. Whether you understand the matter or not is irrelevant. The church has spoken by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We listen to her in matters we both understand and do not understand to the end of time.

Read my Post 114 as well if you missed it since it has some more detailed information on how to reconcile the differences.

Yes, I completely agree. I suggest that you read church history and what other Popes have said on this matter including the numerous Ex-Cathedra Dogma quotes that I have provided for you.