Do Non-Catholics go to Heaven?

[rinnie]

Well a baby wouldn’t fall into Baptism of Desire here we are talking innocents. Which in truth is believed children are till the age of consciousness. So had they not been born into original sin they wouldn’t be aware of the ability to sin.

1261- As for children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

But I don’t know rinnie its a good question. Have you ever heard the Mormons/LDS take on this concept?

Theres a good Bull on this also but I can’t remember which Pope wrote it. Let me google it a bit and see what I come up with.

Interesting though.

Okay then you are saying, let me get this correct, I do not want to put words in your mouth, but you are saying that God could or does not know what a baby desires or if that child would have lived would have desired in this life then?

 

[GaryTaylor]

---

Truly, being catholic or whatever earthly group one claims to belong to means nothing at all…

**Romans 9:15-16

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. **

“whatever earthly group one claims to belong to means nothing at all”

philosophical point of view on which eternity you chose to dwell within.

If the facts don’t fit the theory, change the facts?

 

[rinnie]

Well a baby wouldn’t fall into Baptism of Desire here we are talking innocents. Which in truth is believed children are till the age of consciousness. So had they not been born into original sin they wouldn’t be aware of the ability to sin.

1261- As for children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

But I don’t know rinnie its a good question. Have you ever heard the Mormons/LDS take on this concept?

Theres a good Bull on this also but I can’t remember which Pope wrote it. Let me google it a bit and see what I come up with.

Interesting though.

See the Pope is saying by what I just read while he cannot trump the word of God and say you CAN enter heaven without Baptism. as I believe my good friend SIr Knight is proclaiming to be the truth, that God though his mercy can Baptise them through other means, but as our Good Pope also said lets read it, we can live in HOPE that by the MERCY of GOD it CAN be possible.

But the bottom line here is what is Baptism, IT is the GRACE given to us all by what? The death of Jesus Christ on the cross that makes it POSSIBLE for our sins to EVEN BE FORGIVEN.

WHich goes back to the point there is no salvation outside of the CC. AKA There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

When you say this to a Catholic we know that the CC is meant Jesus Christ. When you talk to a Catholic about baptism we KNOW that there is ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

ONE BAPTISM means Original sin is wiped away ONCE and for all. Not actual sun,

We only know what has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. To date we only know we must be baptised to enter heaven. Simply because you can have NO sin not even Original sin to enter heaven.

If you could have original sin to enter heaven Father Abraham, Moses. etc Jesus would not have to have gone to hades to release these souls.

To say that even a baby can enter heaven with sin is not the teaching of the RCC. The Good word of our Lord says you cannot get to the Father without going thru the SON. Thats the Cross.

 

[rinnie]

---

Truly, being catholic or whatever earthly group one claims to belong to means nothing at all…

**Romans 9:15-16

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. **

WoW!!! So what you are saying then according to you that if You claim to be a Christian and a follower of Christ and do your best to obey his commands it means nothing at all?

I am kinda lost here,the divine gift of Gods faith being a enactment of his mercy, which is the scripture that you just quoted here, seems to be in direct conflict in with what you just said.

How can your faith given to you by God be an enactment of his mercy, and then it not matter if you follow that faith you were given

 

[Sirach2]

rinnie:

Hold on there. Does a baby repent their sins at Baptism? Is baptism not the washing away of Original sin?

Of course not. There are no “actual” sins committed. Every being is born with original sin that is removed with baptism, whatever form that may take: desire, blood, or water baptism, and yes, through the redemption of Christ which applies that grace to all ages, BC and AD.

I need the teaching of the CC that states that God infuses a soul at the moment of conception.

When do you think the soul is infused, Rinnie? At birth? Somewhere inbetween? Why do you suppose abortion is so heinous, if there is no soul there? St. John the Baptist recognized his Savior in Mary’s womb when he was a six-month fetus. No soul???
Catechism:

**1711 **Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (*GS *15 § 2).

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2323 Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.

 

[rinnie]

And obviously, babies do not need to repent of their sins.

We know from revelation that God infuses a soul at the moment of conception. Babies who are miscarried, or even the millions who are aborted in our societies, were given a soul/spirit destined to live in eternal beatitude with God, their Creator. That spirit does not die along with the body, but it is eternally created and will live forever.

We also believe in the resurrection of the dead who will be in either heaven or hell. The form of that body is unknown to us. Surely, it will not be resurrected as an immature fetus, nor as a 100-year-old body with dementia or deformity. No, the spirit is totally different from the body. To that baby’s “spirit,” God could use extraordinary means of baptism of desire at the moment of their death giving them an opportunity to accept or reject Him, and therefore “justify” them for salvation. Revelation and Church teaching has not revealed this to us. Formerly, “Limbo” was a theological assumption without true revelation from God.

We therefore entrust these innocent ones to the Mercy of God, who alone knows their status in the after-life. That’s not to say baptism isn’t truly necessary in the ordinary manner and should not be neglected.

My bad, I was taking this that what you were saying that when God infuses a soul at conception it is saved from Original sin.

So back to my question, where it the teaching taught that besides the Blessed Mother we are all saved from Original SIn before the moment of our Baptism. That is my question.

Again as I stated, and I BELIEVE by baptism of desire and the mercy of God Jesus himself does this saving baptism himself, but again I am free to believe this, But I cannot proclaim it as the teaching of the RCC.

As we agree the word of GOd does say to not hinder the Children let them come to me, which is why we can feel that is HOPE for Baptism of Desire. or Baptism by the mercy of God. But it in no way trumps Baptism.

Look at the Blessed Mother she still needed to be saved by the Merits of her son. SHe herself was still saved at the moment of her conception by EXTA-Ordinary means. thats a fact we can believe and must believe.

But while we can rely on Gods mercy I need the teacing that ALL will receive that Mercy.

 

[rinnie]

Of course not. There are no “actual” sins committed. Every being is born with original sin that is removed with baptism, whatever form that may take: desire, blood, or water baptism, and yes, through the redemption of Christ which applies that grace to all ages, BC and AD.

When do you think the soul is infused, Rinnie? At birth? Somewhere inbetween? Why do you suppose abortion is so heinous, if there is no soul there? St. John the Baptist recognized his Savior in Mary’s womb when he was a six-month fetus. No soul???

But let me be clear, we are in 100% agreement that the moment of conception a soul is created and becomes a human being made by God.

 

[Sirach2]

But while we can rely on Gods mercy I need the teacing that ALL will receive that Mercy.

I have not seen anyone state this anywhere in this thread. It has been said that we do not know how God’s Mercy is applied to infants who are unbaptized. There is no definitive revelation on that issue. The only true words that have been stated are that they do not go to hell, as Sir Knight teaches in error.

We can believe or not believe that in an extraordinary manner, God may grant baptism of desire at the moment of their death. However, it is not known.

 

[jmcrae]

I have not seen anyone state this anywhere in this thread. It has been said that we do not know how God’s Mercy is applied to infants who are unbaptized. There is no definitive revelation on that issue. The only true words that have been stated are that they do not go to hell, as Sir Knight teaches in error.

We can believe or not believe that in an extraordinary manner, God may grant baptism of desire at the moment of their death. However, it is not known.

We cannot know which non-Catholics or unbaptized persons will be saved. We know that some are (Moses, Elijah, the Holy Innocents, etc.) - but to say that some are is in no way to say that all are.

No doubt it is much better to be a Catholic in full communion with the Pope, so as to have certainty. But no one can say “this person” or “that person” is destined for Hell.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I don’t think I’ve even been on a thread in the past, on which so many Catholics disagreed with each other. Like I said, “twilight zone.” :hypno:

Still following. . .
Anna

 

[rinnie]

I have not seen anyone state this anywhere in this thread. It has been said that we do not know how God’s Mercy is applied to infants who are unbaptized. There is no definitive revelation on that issue. The only true words that have been stated are that they do not go to hell, as Sir Knight teaches in error.

We can believe or not believe that in an extraordinary manner, God may grant baptism of desire at the moment of their death. However, it is not known.

Okay then lets take this another way now. Is there scripture that says that there is Salvation outside of Jesus Christ? Is there scripture that states that we can go the the Father without going through the Son? Is there scripture that states that we can enter into heaven without Baptism? NO

Now what is Baptism? Is Baptism not being saved by the means of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Now if a baby is not saved by the means of Jesus Christ on the Cross which is Baptism which removes sin can a baby enter heaven? According to scripture the answer is NO.

l peter 3:21

Acts 2:38 Says everyONE of you. Acts 22:16 says WHY DELAY.

Now according to Sacred Tradition ALL were baptised. Even baby’s for forgivness of sin.

Now back to the question at hand when we die at the moment of our death is it judgement day? Are we either deemed for heaven or hell? According to scripture thats it.

Even if we enter into purgatory it means HEAVEN. its a given.

Now either he is correct and you must be baptised to enter heaven as the word of GOd says or he is wrong and you are correct and a baby does not have original sin and enters into heaven with original sin. Do you see HIS point?

We are told that we CANNOT enter into heaven with SIN. Now think what I am saying. God knows when a baby is born if its getting in or not, Rather it lives or not, do you agree?

Did God not know at the moment of our being rather we were one of his or not? SO if we live to be 100 and choose to reject GOd, or choose to reject God as a baby, do we not still have a soul and the free will to do so? Or does God not know the mind of an infant?

My question is can a infant choose GOd or reject GOd. Where is it written it is a certain age. Where is it written that GOd cannot know the mind of a child and a child cannot reject God.

SO here is what I am seeing. No one can enter heaven without being Baptised. But if by ordinary means that is not possible that person can be baptised by exta-ordinary means by the grace of GOd that we are not aware of it IS POSSIBLE.

Simply because nothing is impossible for God. BUT we cannot enter into heaven without receiving our Baptism which cleans us from the stain of Original Sin no matter who we are.

So can you say that a Baby can enter into heaven with Original Sin yes or No? Because if you are saying yes, you have alot of scripture to ignore, do you not agree with me.

Now the Church says it does not know if a baby is condemned to hell, I agree with that. But where does it say it is not? It does teach you cannot enter into heaven without Baptism does it not?

WE can only teach what has been revealed to us. So has it been revealed to us that if you are not Baptised you cannot enter heaven, Yes or No?

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think I’ve even been on a thread in the past, on which so many Catholics disagreed with each other. Like I said, “twilight zone.” :hypno:

Still following. . .
Anna

Would you say that it is because there is no teaching (and therefore, everyone is making stuff up that contradicts each other) or that there is a teaching, but it is not very well understood, and people are trying to come to understand it?

There is a huge difference between the two.

My personal experience of Protestantism was that everyone was making stuff up, because there was no formal teaching available.

But my sense of this conversation and of most conversations in the Catholic world, is that there is a teaching, and that people are trying to understand it, rather than that there is no teaching, and people are trying to come up with their own answers to a question that is simply not answered by that particular tradition.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think I’ve even been on a thread in the past, on which so many Catholics disagreed with each other. Like I said, “twilight zone.” :hypno:

Still following. . .
Anna

No anna, we will agree when this is over. We will agree that like the Pope we can only teach and be taught what God has revealed to us.

God did reveal we can enter heaven without Baptism. But as stated we do not KNOW the extend of the Mercy of God. We believe that by his MERCY he can grant BAPTISM under extra-ordinary means. But we are free to believe in the mercy of God.

Just because we are Catholic does not mean we know everything about our faith either. My Dad lived to be 83 and was still learning his faith. He said if the world could not contain the books of what God has done, how could we know it all.

Now are we saying that GOd can let a baby enter into heaven without Baptism? We are saying we CAN"T say that but we do not know the mercy of God. All we can teach is the truth that according to the word of GOd it is needed.

SO that is why we as Roman Catholic do it as soon as possible. If God chooses to reveal this to us someday the Church will teach that. But to date we can only rely on his mercy.

What does that mean? What that means we can HOPE and PRAY for his mercy for the sake of the Child. Can the Pope say you do not have to be Baptised to enter heaven. NO HE CAN NOT. Has he ever condemned them to hell, NO HE HAS NOT. GOd has not revealed that to him Anna. SO when SIr Knight said you must be free from sin which means you must be baptised to enter heaven how can anyone say he is wrong.

How can anyone enter heaven with even original sin? We are taught if you die in mortal sin you go to hell. If you die in venial sin you can be cleaned from the remains if it purgatory. But could God baptise a baby and release him from original sin. Of course he could, but we cannot teach that he will and does. How can we know the mind of God.

 

[Emily23C]

God reaches out to everyone. In my opinion, it is up to them to answer whether they are Catholic or not.

 

[Sirach2]

Rinnie:

Now either he is correct and you must be baptised to enter heaven as the word of GOd says or he is wrong and you are correct and a baby does not have original sin and enters into heaven with original sin. Do you see HIS point?

Rinnie, let’s get this straight once and for all. I never said anywhere that a baby enters heaven with original sin. If you persist in putting words in my mouth, as you have done now in a few posts, I have nothing further to say to you. It seems that you are just looking for an argument, rather than trying to understand the many posts that have addressed this already. Like Viva and Sir Knight, I will simply bypass your posts and let you ramble.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Would you say that it is because there is no teaching (and therefore, everyone is making stuff up that contradicts each other) or that there is a teaching, but it is not very well understood, and people are trying to come to understand it?

There is a huge difference between the two.

My personal experience of Protestantism was that everyone was making stuff up, because there was no formal teaching available.

But my sense of this conversation and of most conversations in the Catholic world, is that there is a teaching, and that people are trying to understand it, rather than that there is no teaching, and people are trying to come up with their own answers to a question that is simply not answered by that particular tradition.

Good Question,

To take it a step further the CC teaching is Vast. Let us not pretend its a walk in the park. Rarely do I come here and not learn something and by far I’m not new to any of this. So its no revelation we lose many in the process of conversations. But truth is, this thread is pretty much spot-on.

For certain to keep it simple, and Black and White could be done. But in truth that doesn’t help us but hurts us. It may be a bit of an effort to view this in depth, but it brings a greater clarity IMHO.

Peace.

 

[rinnie]

Would you say that it is because there is no teaching (and therefore, everyone is making stuff up that contradicts each other) or that there is a teaching, but it is not very well understood, and people are trying to come to understand it?

There is a huge difference between the two.

My personal experience of Protestantism was that everyone was making stuff up, because there was no formal teaching available.

But my sense of this conversation and of most conversations in the Catholic world, is that there is a teaching, and that people are trying to understand it, rather than that there is no teaching, and people are trying to come up with their own answers to a question that is simply not answered by that particular tradition.

Amen to that.

But there is ONE thing we DO know, NO SIN can ever enter heaven. Which is what SIr Knight is trying to get across.

And we cannot have that sin washed away without the Cross of Christ. It is by the Cross that we can be forgiven for our sins by means of our Baptism.

Can anyone enter heaven with sins? NO Not according to the word of God. Nothing defiled can enter heaven. That means that by the cross Jesus will find a way to wash away that sin from a child which is called Baptism if that Child is deemed to heaven. We are FREE to believe that. Is it a guaranteed teaching? WHO KNOWS. Because WHO of any of US can know the mind of God.

But is Sir KNIGHT wrong to say that anyone with Original SIn cannot enter heaven? ANd if they have original sin and are not cleansed from it, where else is there to go. At the moment of our death is there only heaven and hell? Then how can you dispute him. Is he wrong to say unbaptised baby’s cannot enter heaven? SHow me where he is wrong?

He never said that baby’s that were not baptised in this world could NOT enter heaven. He said that UNBAPTISED babys would have ORIGINAL SIN and must be cleansed. He never said they could not be cleansed by the mercy of God and back to the whole concept of this thread SALVATION through Jesus Christ. The Death of Christ is the Baptism, he paid for the sin, he cleansed us from it. HE washed away sin. \

Baptism of water is ORDINARY means. There are extra- ordinary means that are known only to GOD, we can believe and accept this. Because of the scirpture of Gods love for Children and his great mercy for all.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Would you say that it is because there is no teaching (and therefore, everyone is making stuff up that contradicts each other) or that there is a teaching, but it is not very well understood, and people are trying to come to understand it?

There is a huge difference between the two.

My personal experience of Protestantism was that everyone was making stuff up, because there was no formal teaching available.

But my sense of this conversation and of most conversations in the Catholic world, is that there is a teaching, and that people are trying to understand it, rather than that there is no teaching, and people are trying to come up with their own answers to a question that is simply not answered by that particular tradition.

jmcrae,
I think there is a clear teaching in the CC; but perhaps some Catholics are not well Catechized. Hopefully, by the end of this thread, Catholics will be in agreement.

Though, Sir Knight seemed to be sincerely shocked by the teachings of LG; and he doesn’t seem to be giving much in his position. Hopefully you and other Catholics will be able to help him sort through teachings of past and present.

Like I said in a previous post, I’m actually “getting it”–meaning, I’m starting to understand how the past infallible teachings fit with the infallible teachings of LG. In a previous thread, GaryTaylor planted the seeds for my understanding. This thread brought forth the fruit of understanding.

Peace,
Anna

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, let’s get this straight once and for all. I never said anywhere that a baby enters heaven with original sin. If you persist in putting words in my mouth, as you have done now in a few posts, I have nothing further to say to you. It seems that you are just looking for an argument, rather than trying to understand the many posts that have addressed this already. Like Viva and Sir Knight, I will simply bypass your posts and let you ramble.

Sirarch, I am not trying to argue with you, I am trying to get us all on the same page. I am asking you can a baby enter heaven without baptism? According to what we know we have to say NO.

But is Baptism possible by extra-ordinary means we have to say yes, because extra ordinary means can have Christ wash away that sin any way he wants. ITs still a baptism, cleansing of the sin. We call it baptism by ordinary means.

BUt back to the question if a baby is not cleaned from that sin, Will it enter heaven. We have to say no. Do you not agree.

Now if it cannot enter heaven, where is it to go. I know you hate to say it, or even think it, but what would your answer be, if NOT heaven where?

So what I am saying do you see what Sir Knight is saying. Thats all I am saying. IF not heaven its has to be hell do you agree?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Good Question,

To take it a step further the CC teaching is Vast. Let us not pretend its a walk in the park. Rarely do I come here and not learn something and by far I’m not new to any of this. So its no revelation we lose many in the process of conversations. But truth is, this thread is pretty much spot-on.

For certain to keep it simple, and Black and White could be done. But in truth that doesn’t help us but hurts us. It may be a bit of an effort to view this in depth, but it brings a greater clarity IMHO.

Peace.

Gary,
Very insightful.

Anna