Do Non-Catholics go to Heaven?

[crazzeto]

Okay lets go another way, a simple question. Do you think anyone can enter into heaven without Jesus Christ?

Certainly not, and I would challenge you to justify any other position based upon what I wrote.

Lets start Salvation through Grace. Grace is a free gfft given to us by God. Baptism is a Grace a Sacrament a outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. Our Baptism is the beginning of our Grace that we gain. And by it we are instituted into the Body of Christ. And by being instituted into the Body of Christ we become Clean from the stain of Original Sin. We are wiped clean by his blood as an infant and start off with a clean slate.

100% agree, as long as we can accept also the doctrines of

Baptism of desire (I think you already discussed this your self)
Baptism of blood

in addition to normative, valid baptism.

Edit
Rinni, before we get into a big long discussion… Please do this, go back and reread my posting very carefully. The tell me which part of it you have a problem with.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized.

" Baptism is necessary for salvation " I believe was the highlighted point made.

Its no different than stating “There’s No Salvation outside the CC” yet ignoring the entire context of LG. . . . .

Gary,
If the soul is given/infused (don’t know the correct term) at the moment of conception; could an unborn child be baptized? Seems like this might be a good idea if fetal distress occurs, and there is a possibility of losing the baby. Just wondering. I haven’t ever heard anything about his.

Peace,
Anna

 

[crazzeto]

Gary,
If the soul is given/infused (don’t know the correct term) at the moment of conception; could an unborn child be baptized? Seems like this might be a good idea if fetal distress occurs, and there is a possibility of losing the baby. Just wondering. I haven’t ever heard anything about his.

Peace,
Anna

Thoelogically, I’m not sure if what you suggest has been addressed in particular because it’s only been medically possible only in very recent years (and even then)…

It is worth nothing as a caution this has already been made a suggestion though, by abortion advocates. They see this as a way to white wash abortion, baptise the child, then your sure it goes to heaven then it couldn’t possibly be a sin to abort because we’re just sending it to a better life before it’s had a chance to mess up (bizzar logic, since this forces them to admit that the child is a real, living person).

I would say on this basis alone, it’s worth not doing as you suggest.

 

[rinnie]

Certainly not, and I would challenge you to justify any other position based upon what I wrote.

100% agree, as long as we can accept also the doctrines of

Baptism of desire (I think you already discussed this your self)
Baptism of blood

in addition to normative, valid baptism.

Edit
Rinni, before we get into a big long discussion… Please do this, go back and reread my posting very carefully. The tell me which part of it you have a problem with.

I have not one problem with not one part of it, I actually believe it with all of my heart and soul. I believe this to be the scripture to be predicting what was to come. We were to become purified by Christ. I believe many sheep have been scattered as the scripture states and it was Christ who was the lamb, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

It was the Lamb of God who paid for all of the sins of the world that untied the world by the body and blood of his son. And it is by the lamb and his body and blood that Salvation to all men came. And that is the only possible way it can be.

Is that what you see also

 

[crazzeto]

I have not one problem with not one part of it, I actually believe it with all of my heart and soul. I believe this to be the scripture to be predicting what was to come. We were to become purified by Christ. I believe many sheep have been scattered as the scripture states and it was Christ who was the lamb, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

It was the Lamb of God who paid for all of the sins of the world that untied the world by the body and blood of his son. And it is by the lamb and his body and blood that Salvation to all men came. And that is the only possible way it can be.

Is that what you see also

Do you honestly think I would post something to the forums that I don’t believe?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thoelogically, I’m not sure if what you suggest has been addressed in particular because it’s only been medically possible only in very recent years (and even then)…

It is worth nothing as a caution this has already been made a suggestion though, by abortion advocates. They see this as a way to white wash abortion, baptise the child, then your sure it goes to heaven then it couldn’t possibly be a sin to abort because we’re just sending it to a better life before it’s had a chance to mess up (bizzar logic, since this forces them to admit that the child is a real, living person).

I would say on this basis alone, it’s worth not doing as you suggest.

crazzeto,

I didn’t realize this was an argument in the abortion debate. This certainly does not justify abortion. Though, if a mother is on the verge of losing her baby, would it hurt to baptize, even while the baby is still in the womb? I realize it would be done without water, but with words— baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
Anna

 

[crazzeto]

crazzeto,

I didn’t realize this was an argument in the abortion debate. This certainly does not justify abortion. Though, if a mother is on the verge of losing her baby, would it hurt to baptize, even while the baby is still in the womb? I realize it would be done without water, but with words— baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
Anna

If we accept a baptism of desire, I’m not sure whether or not a water baptism is necessary. You do pose an interesting question, in particular since, while we generally accept that unbaptised babies go to heaven, we obviously cannot know.

Edit
(btw, I first heard this argumentation on CAF when abortion supporters posed it in apologetics I believe. it was shocking and a disgusting suggestion).

 

[rinnie]

Do you honestly think I would post something to the forums that I don’t believe?

Oh I know love.

Let me give everyone something to think about.

SIr Knight is one of my VERY favorites, and let me tell you guys why first. I agee he is not perfect none of us all, and could be a little strong headed are we not ALL that way when we believe in something SO strong… But another reason I have a strange connection to him, and don’t even know him personally, he has the same mind set as my Dad did.

Here is why, and here is what I am seeing.

Sir Knight reads the scripture ALL must be baptised in order to enter heaven. Its the word of God. He is like my Dad in the manner you can hate the way he teaches it, its the word of God he believes it and he will live it that way and teach it to whoever will listen. He is not going to sugar coat it, all he cares if getting out the truth the best he knows and thats it.

Now what really are we arging about here. If the truth be known we are tying to say we CAN get into heaven without baptism and the Sacrament of the RCC. But yet we are not really saying that at all are we. DO we believe it ourself?

Lets go to the truth, we called him on the carpet. Lets put ourself on the carpet and be truthful just once.

While we CANNOT condemn ANYONE to hell, we all agree on that. Do we agree that there is anyway possible to enter heaven without the OHCAC and the Sacraments?

Lets be honest DO WE? I am so sorry for who I hurt or turn away from my faith to say this but I believe that Salvaton is throught the OHCAC also.

So as hard as I know it is to hear I have to say I do agree with much as what he is saying. I don’t want to hurt anyone, but like he is saying he would rather hurt someone, and have the despise him, but he wants them to know the truth and prays they can turn towards it. He will not disagree with the words that Jesus did teach.

What I am saying he believes what he is saying, and it is scripture.

Must we be baptised in the name of The trinity. Scripture and ST does say yes.

Is salvation though Christ and is the Holy SPirit leading the OHCAC Scripture says yes.

My niece said to my Papa one day that she is going to the Protestant church and it is just like the Catholic Church. I swear to you my Papas body rose in mid air off of the couch.

He said WHAT!! Please do not tell me that you are going to compare the Protestant Church to the CC. You do not have the Eucharist and the Sacraments. Please go try telling this to someone else. I will never be swayed from the Church that was started by Christ on the day of Pentecost. so please don’t waste my time.

SO what I am saying is according to my Mom (she was so mad at him) he should have minded his own business. He was so upset and had to speak the truth.

So my point is what exactly do we disagree with, his way of sticking with the truth, should SIr Knight like my Papa bend, or should they stand firm with what they believe.

Just something to think about is all.

The only thing that I can see that was brought up was the Church teaching that while we can HOPE and pray for the mercy of GOd that there is another way, In the eyes of the Church at this time and Sir Knight, and Papa they sure don’t SEE one.

I Mean lets be honest guys Salvation is by Baptism and the Sacraments are how we are saved, how do we fight that? My question is do we believe it to be the true word of GOd. I have to say I DO.

 

[crazzeto]

rinni,

The problem is we don’t know if one can make it to heaven with out one of the three valid forms of the sacrament

1. Water and Spirit (which my daughter received on June 18th)
2. Desire
3. Blood.

Christ did say “no one can enter the kingdom unless they are born again” and again, “unless you are born of water and the Spirit you can not enter the kingdom of God”.

So we must believe that all who do enter, must in some way be born again in this manner.

 

[rinnie]

If we accept a baptism of desire, I’m not sure whether or not a water baptism is necessary. You do pose an interesting question, in particular since, while we generally accept that unbaptised babies go to heaven, we obviously cannot know.

Edit
(btw, I first heard this argumentation on CAF when abortion supporters posed it in apologetics I believe. it was shocking and a disgusting suggestion).

See this is hard core Papa SIr Knight teaching. We cannot say we do know. We can say we rely on the mercy of God.

But what we do know is this. BAPTISE a baby as SOON as possible. Its made possible by Christ. Obey him, obey the Pope do it.

 

[rinnie]

rinni,

The problem is we don’t know if one can make it to heaven with out one of the three valid forms of the sacrament

1. Water and Spirit (which my daughter received on June 18th)
2. Desire
3. Blood.

Christ did say “no one can enter the kingdom unless they are born again” and again, “unless you are born of water and the Spirit you can not enter the kingdom of God”.

So we must believe that all who do enter, must in some way be born again in this manner.

I kmow, and its the truth. And thats the problem, because what happens to those who reject the truth, feel the truth does not apply to them, etc. See what I am saying.

While we don’t know and cannot speak for God, and yes he can overturn his word he can do anything he wants, but the question is WILL he, and WHY would he

 

[rinnie]

Now back to the question at hand. Sir Knight has asked.

SHow him a teaching that says that you CAN absolutely enter heaven without Baptism? There is no teaching.

The Pope say we can rely on the mercy of God, but that does not overturn that entrance into heaven WITHOUT Baptism IS POSSIBLE.

Unless as Sir Knight is saying he sure never found it.

Every thing that was given said we can HOPE, we can PRAY we can CHOOSE To rely on the MERCY of God. Thats all true. But it never said we are guaranteed entrance without Baptism:shrug:

 

[crazzeto]

Now back to the question at hand. Sir Knight has asked.

SHow him a teaching that says that you CAN absolutely enter heaven without Baptism? There is no teaching.

The Pope say we can rely on the mercy of God, but that does not overturn that entrance into heaven WITHOUT Baptism IS POSSIBLE.

Unless as Sir Knight is saying he sure never found it.

Every thing that was given said we can HOPE, we can PRAY we can CHOOSE To rely on the MERCY of God. Thats all true. But it never said we are guaranteed entrance without Baptism:shrug:

Depends on what you mean by “without baptism”, are you suggesting that a baptism of desire or blood is not “baptism”?

 

[crazzeto]

I kmow, and its the truth. And thats the problem, because what happens to those who reject the truth, feel the truth does not apply to them, etc. See what I am saying.

While we don’t know and cannot speak for God, and yes he can overturn his word he can do anything he wants, but the question is WILL he, and WHY would he

God will never overturn his word, this he can not do because it would violate his nature. He is aboslute, he is a rock, he will never fail his word.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread has run its course.
Thanks to all who participated.