"Do not clericalize!” -- Pope Francis

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Do priests encourage layman to be deacons? I have never given thought about how a deacon becomes a deacon.
 
7_Sorrows said:
Do priests encourage layman to be deacons? I have never given thought about how a deacon becomes a deacon.
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Yes. My pastor encouraged me to do so, however, a married deacon candidate needs his wife’s consent, and that may not be forthcoming.
 
Vico said:
Yes. My pastor encouraged me to do so, however, a married deacon candidate needs his wife’s consent, and that may not be forthcoming.
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Okay, thanks. I know there is a lot of preparation and study to become a deacon. And it continues after one is a deacon. I will say a prayer for you.
 
Here In Pittsburgh, it takes at least 3 or 4 years of classes and preparation. I don’t think any parish priest could really push someone to make that kind of commitment. A priest can only suggest it
 
I think there is a world of difference between what the Pope said … “What if we make him a deacon?” … and a priest merely suggesting to someone that they might want to look into becoming a deacon. At least I hope there is … because I would think there are many good men out there that live a good Catholic lifestyle that might just need a little nudge. I would love to get Don Ruggero’s opinion on this … as he would undoubtedly be able to explain better what the Pope actually meant. I’m hoping the Pope did not mean that a priest should not approach the subject at all with men in their parish who they see as being good candidates to become a Deacon.
 
Yes clericalism in its various forms is an* error*.

Often not recognized or known about. And which is present too among the laity.

(Russell Shaw has written a good deal on the subject…fine works…both articles and books …via Ignatius Press, OSV etc etc)
 
We have to be careful here.

As with most of HH Francis’s comments, they often get misinterpreted and misrepresented in the public sphere.

I think that what the Holy Father is saying is that ordination to the diaconate should not be a reward given to a man as recognition for his achievements in the parish. Ordination should not be seen as a way of validating what a man is already doing, or has done.

I rather doubt that he is discouraging us to encourage and foster and indeed to seek-out vocations to the diaconate. Of course, we should be doing that.
 
Katherine438 said:
I think there is a world of difference between what the Pope said … “What if we make him a deacon?” … and a priest merely suggesting to someone that they might want to look into becoming a deacon. At least I hope there is … because I would think there are many good men out there that live a good Catholic lifestyle that might just need a little nudge. I would love to get Don Ruggero’s opinion on this … as he would undoubtedly be able to explain better what the Pope actually meant. I’m hoping the Pope did not mean that a priest should not approach the subject at all with men in their parish who they see as being good candidates to become a Deacon.
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I am hoping that is not what he meant either. We have wonderful deacons in our church and I don’t know what each of their stories are, but they are dedicated and wonderful inspirations who answered the call. As another poster said, so much commitment and study is required and I am sure requires discernment that one will
not do it on a whim!
 
Bookcat said:
Yes clericalism in its various forms is an* error*.

Often not recognized or known about. And which is present too among the laity.

(Russell Shaw has written a good deal on the subject…fine works…both articles and books …via Ignatius Press, OSV etc etc)
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What exactly does he mean by clericalism? Could you explain as you seem to know
something about the subject?
 
7_Sorrows said:
What exactly does he mean by clericalism? Could you explain as you seem to know
something about the subject?
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There are various aspects of clericalism.

Here - (while he does not there use the term) - would be the sense that sense that since he is such a good active Christian - make him a Deacon. Without the question of if the person having a vocation to be a Deacon. As if the lay vocation was not a vocation in the Church and a call to holiness and apostate etc…that one should make him a “Cleric”…
 
Katherine438 said:
I think there is a world of difference between what the Pope said … “What if we make him a deacon?” … and a priest merely suggesting to someone that they might want to look into becoming a deacon. At least I hope there is … because I would think there are many good men out there that live a good Catholic lifestyle that might just need a little nudge. I would love to get Don Ruggero’s opinion on this … as he would undoubtedly be able to explain better what the Pope actually meant. I’m hoping the Pope did not mean that a priest should not approach the subject at all with men in their parish who they see as being good candidates to become a Deacon.
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Thank you for your kind compliment and for your confidence.

As you surmise, no…this is not a proscription; it is not a statement that a priest should not encourage vocations to the diaconate. Not at all.

The issue that the Pope is addressing is not unknown to those who have held positions within the chancery…a parish priest proposing a potential candidate to the diaconate for purely human considerations.

As Pope Francis said very well, the question of the diaconate is one of a vocation from God.

I remember one parishioner from years ago who was excellent in what he did – he was indispensable to me and to the parish. He had the gifts that would have made a fine Deacon. But he did not have the sense of being called to be a Deacon and he did not want to take on the years of study and formation, given the demands of his family and his career. He continued to teach and the many ministries and other things he did, as a lay person, that made him such an asset to the parish.

One of the things that I find so many people do not understand about Pope Francis is when he uses the term “clericalism”…he uses it in a way that those of us familiar with what he is talking about see and understand. The context of his comments make it quite clear. It is a type of careerism in the clergy on the one hand. In this particular instance, it would see making the man a deacon as giving him a promotion or taking him up the ladder, as it were.

That is why Pope Francis severely limited the granting of the title Monsignor. Which brings us to the other hand…clericalism for the Pope denotes an over fascination with the trappings and external trifles on the part of a certain sort of cleric.

The Pope speaks of these phenomena with fair regularity. One hopes that he is being heard.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Thank you for your kind compliment and for your confidence.

As you surmise, no…this is not a proscription; it is not a statement that a priest should not encourage vocations to the diaconate. Not at all.

The issue that the Pope is addressing is not unknown to those who have held positions within the chancery…a parish priest proposing a potential candidate to the diaconate for purely human considerations.

As Pope Francis said very well, the question of the diaconate is one of a vocation from God.

I remember one parishioner from years ago who was excellent in what he did – he was indispensable to me and to the parish. He had the gifts that would have made a fine Deacon. But he did not have the sense of being called to be a Deacon and he did not want to take on the years of study and formation, given the demands of his family and his career. He continued to teach and the many ministries and other things he did, as a lay person, that made him such an asset to the parish.

One of the things that I find so many people do not understand about Pope Francis is when he uses the term “clericalism”…he uses it in a way that those of us familiar with what he is talking about see and understand. The context of his comments make it quite clear. It is a type of careerism in the clergy on the one hand. In this particular instance, it would see making the man a deacon as giving him a promotion or taking him up the ladder, as it were.

That is why Pope Francis severely limited the granting of the title Monsignor. Which brings us to the other hand…clericalism for the Pope denotes an over fascination with the trappings and external trifles on the part of a certain sort of cleric.

The Pope speaks of these phenomena with fair regularity. One hopes that he is being heard.
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Thank you for your clarification.
 
7_Sorrows said:
Could you explain
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For other aspects of the error of Clericalism - Russell Shaw has written a good deal on the subject…fine works…both articles and books …via Ignatius Press, OSV etc etc

A good number of articles by him on the topic are online in various publications. We could go more into such but that would seem to be off topic here (which was zeroed in on that one matter).

Such can involve though the attitude and actions and ideas of both Priests and Laity.
 
Bookcat said:
For other aspects of the error of Clericalism - Russell Shaw has written a good deal on the subject…fine works…both articles and books …via Ignatius Press, OSV etc etc

A good number of articles by him on the topic are online in various publications. We could go more into such but that would seem to be off topic here (which was zeroed in on that one matter).
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I have heard of Russell Shaw, but I have not read any books by him so I am not familiar with what he has written about clericalism.
 
As I noted above- there are various aspects of clericalism.

For the sense that the Pope used the term in that singular quote (again there are more aspects of the error- but that is not the topic here)…here is a wider part of the quote from the Vatican website - so one can see what he means in this case:

"You spoke about** clericalism**. It is one of the evils, one of the evils of the Church. But it is a “complicit” evil, because priests take pleasure in the temptation to clericalize the laity, but many of the laity are on their knees asking to be clericalized, because it is more comfortable, it is more comfortable! This is a double sin! We must overcome this temptation. The layperson must be lay, one who is baptized, with the power that comes from his baptism. A servant, but with his lay vocation, and one does not sell this, one does not bargain with it, one should not be complicit with another person… No. I am this way! Because that is my identity. I have heard this so many times in my homeland: “In my parish, you know, I have an excellent layman: he is a good organizer… Your Eminence, why don’t we make him a deacon?”. The priest’s suggestion is immediately to clericalize. Let’s make this layman… Why? Why is the deacon or priest more important than the layman? No! This is the mistake! Is he a good layman? Then let him continue and grow as such. Why treat his Christian identity lightly. In my opinion, clericalism impedes the layman’s growth. But keep in mind what I said: the two parties are accomplices in the temptation. For there would be no clericalism if there weren’t laymen who wanted to be clericalized. Is this clear? "

~ Pope Francis

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/march/documents/papa-francesco_20140322_associazione-corallo.html
 
Katherine438 said:
I think there is a world of difference between what the Pope said … “What if we make him a deacon?” … and a priest merely suggesting to someone that they might want to look into becoming a deacon. At least I hope there is … because I would think there are many good men out there that live a good Catholic lifestyle that might just need a little nudge. I would love to get Don Ruggero’s opinion on this … as he would undoubtedly be able to explain better what the Pope actually meant. I’m hoping the Pope did not mean that a priest should not approach the subject at all with men in their parish who they see as being good candidates to become a Deacon.
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It’s pretty clear what the Pope is talking about. Man is given many different gifts. Just because some exhibit them more than others in the context of a parish is not necessarily a reason for them to become deacons – or even to encourage them to become deacons.
 
Bookcat said:
For other aspects of the error of Clericalism - Russell Shaw has written a good deal on the subject…fine works…both articles and books …via Ignatius Press, OSV etc etc

A good number of articles by him on the topic are online in various publications. We could go more into such but that would seem to be off topic here (which was zeroed in on that one matter).

Such can involve though the attitude and actions and ideas of both Priests and Laity.
Click to expand...
7_Sorrows said:
I have heard of Russell Shaw, but I have not read any books by him so I am not familiar with what he has written about clericalism.
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Yes he is likely one of the foremost experts on the subject (one of his books has the great title “To Hunt, to Shoot, to Entertain: Clericalism and the Catholic Laity”…).

Again I do not want to take the thread off topic -but to give you a glimpse (since you asked): clericalism * which Shaw discusses very thoroughly in varied places (some concentrating on this or that aspect)- can effect both Priests and Laity and can involve various* aspects - such as Lay Persons thinking that to be active in the Church *means *they need to be in a “Parish ministry” (as good as they are -such is not the main mission of the Laity…) (they do not recognize the actual full vocation that is theirs in the Church and the world) or Priests who Lord it over their flock or an idea that Priests are a dominate elite in the Church and the Laity are to be passive and subservient, or a mindset that takes for granted that Priests are intrinsically superior and “deserve automatic deference” (to quote Shaw), or the idea that it is the Clerics who are the main actors of the Church… or the idea that Lay persons to seek holiness or really have dignity they should take on aspects of the clergy - that they be “clericalized”…etc
 
Bookcat said:
As I noted above- there are various aspects of clericalism.

For the sense that the Pope used the term in that singular quote (again there are more aspects of the error- but that is not the topic here)…here is a wider part of the quote from the Vatican website - so one can see what he means in this case:

"You spoke about** clericalism**. It is one of the evils, one of the evils of the Church. But it is a “complicit” evil, because priests take pleasure in the temptation to clericalize the laity, but many of the laity are on their knees asking to be clericalized, because it is more comfortable, it is more comfortable! This is a double sin! We must overcome this temptation. The layperson must be lay, one who is baptized, with the power that comes from his baptism. A servant, but with his lay vocation, and one does not sell this, one does not bargain with it, one should not be complicit with another person… No. I am this way! Because that is my identity. I have heard this so many times in my homeland: “In my parish, you know, I have an excellent layman: he is a good organizer… Your Eminence, why don’t we make him a deacon?”. The priest’s suggestion is immediately to clericalize. Let’s make this layman… Why? Why is the deacon or priest more important than the layman? No! This is the mistake! Is he a good layman? Then let him continue and grow as such. Why treat his Christian identity lightly. In my opinion, clericalism impedes the layman’s growth. But keep in mind what I said: the two parties are accomplices in the temptation. For there would be no clericalism if there weren’t laymen who wanted to be clericalized. Is this clear? "

~ Pope Francis

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/march/documents/papa-francesco_20140322_associazione-corallo.html
Click to expand...
“But keep in mind what I said: the two parties are accomplices in the temptation”

So how do they know it is temptation or the will of God?

I did not realize “clericalism” is such a big concern.
 
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