Do not deny sincerity of worship.

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 091104 Wednesday
Brother and Sisters in Jesus Christ –
Let us not deny the sincerity of a Muslim’s worship … anymore than we must not deny the sincerity of a Jew’s worship.

In a small chapel that I frequently visit, where the Holy Eucharist is permanently kept, often when I pray there, a Muslim sometimes positions himself on the floor at the rear, on a small prayer rug, and silently prays.

In my heart, as he prays, I bless him and his prayer. And I hope he thinks of blessing me and my prayer also.

I do not say that Islam has the fulness of God’s Revelation as I am privileged to have. I recognize that the Roman Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ … and only in that Church is the Fulness that Christ gave to his Church.

But I dare not deny or question the sincerity of this Muslim’s worship of God … this Muslim who claims to be a descendant of Abraham … as do Jews also.

I close my posting with these words from CCC 841 … with no apology to those Catholics who have a blind spot and a weak heart in reference to Vatican II. CCC 841: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge of the last day.”
A special Blessing upon us all! John (JohnJFarren)

 

[agiosotheos]

Neither Muslims, nor even Jews worship God. Only those who worship through the revelation of the Word Incarnate in the Holy Spirit are capable of legitimately worshiping God.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Let us not deny the sincerity of a Muslim’s worship … anymore than we must not deny the sincerity of a Jew’s worship.\

---

**Being sincere is NOT the same thing as being right, nor does it guarantee being right.

Hitler and the Nazi leaders sincerely believed they were doing the right thing for Germany and the world. Did their sincerity give them any moral ground, or compensate for their errors?

A first grader might sincerely believe that 2 + 2 = 5. Does that make it right?

You can be sincere–but be sincerely wrong.

You might want to read these words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 15:9 and Mark 7:7**

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 091104 Wednesday
Dear Responders –

One wrote > “Neither Muslims, nor even Jews worship God. Only those who worship through the revelation of the Word Incarnate in the Holy Spirit are capable of legitimately worshiping God.” False. This view is un-Christlike and unworthy of sons and daughters of God and members of the Whole Christ.

And to another responder > No, Hitler and the Nazis were NOT sincere in their belief for the true good of their fellow man. They were blinded by their sin. Adolf Eichmann is an excellent example.

And it is true that being sincere (in good things) may not be “right” – but it sure counts with God and Jesus Christ.

I will not further follow these specific ideas. Some other ideas that are closer to Jesus and the heart of God I probably will engage with.
Thank you. And Blessing! John (JohnJFarren)

 

[agiosotheos]

One wrote > “Neither Muslims, nor even Jews worship God. Only those who worship through the revelation of the Word Incarnate in the Holy Spirit are capable of legitimately worshiping God.” False. This view is un-Christlike and unworthy of sons and daughters of God and members of the Whole Christ.

BS. It’s precisely what the Tradition of the Church, even as directly in the Scriptures, says.

 

[Nominefili]

I don’t think anyone doubts their sincerity. The question is about their accuracy.

 

[Bailey2]

I’m sure they doubt our accuracy also.
“Love is the fulfillment of the Law.” Jesus

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I don’t think anyone doubts their sincerity. The question is about their accuracy.

Indeed. I have no doubt that Muslims seek God, the question is whether or not they are worshiping God as He intended. Muslims especially believe in a version of God taught by a man who completely contradicted everything Christ taught. He even declared that the gospel Christ taught had been tarnished and therefore people must follow his new message, the Koran.

What are some of the things this Koran teaches? Let’s take a sample:

And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.” [S. 5:116]

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [S. 4:157]

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [S. 5:73]

This completely contradicts everything Christians hold dear and everything that was given to them by Christ and the apostles. To top it off, the Koran condemns Christian beliefs and threatens them with hellfire, and therefore Bailey2 is right in saying they question our accuracy as well:

They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. [S. 5:72]

To cite some passages from Christian scripture on all this:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” [John 14:6]

“So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 10:32-33]

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. [Galatians 1:6-8]

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [2 Corinthians 11:13-14]

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [2 John 1:7]

Again, the sincerity of most Muslims in their worship is not denied, but they are led astray by a false prophet who has tricked them into believing a completely contradictory and incompatible doctrine. This separates them from God. What we should pray for is their conversion, and we should strive to educate them on the true nature of the true God.

 

[Doxiemom]

If a person is seeking “God” and praying to “God” does God see and hear them?

Isn’t God capable of this?

Is this not the natural law of the heart, spoken of in the Scriptures?

Reasonable people will be able to separate the terrorists (of whatever faith, or ideology) from the everyday person. And so will God.

While it is true that Muslims have a most dim knowledge of our God, it is still our God. Did not John paul II kiss the koran? Why did he do that? I suspect he did it because the Holy Name of Jesus Christ was within those pages, even amongst the distortions.

And as for the Jews, if it were not for them worshipping the God of Abraham, issac and jacob, we would have no hope at all.

Our God is a mighty God. While it is through Jesus Christ that we are saved, and by Him alone, we cannot comprehend the possiblities of how He can reach anyone who was ever born and died. Since not a single one of us has died, we simply do not know just how the after life truely operates, and how Jesus can offer Himself to those whose eyes were blinded for God’s purpose (the jewish remnant) or for those who never could hear the whole truth about Jesus.

It is the purposeful decision with full knowledge to turn away from Christ, to deny Him, that will send a person to hell.

 

[PaulDupre]

Neither Muslims, nor even Jews worship God. Only those who worship through the revelation of the Word Incarnate in the Holy Spirit are capable of legitimately worshiping God.

St. Paul disagrees with you. Read your bible and learn the truth, that God hears all prayers.

 

[PaulDupre]

JMJ / MMM 091104 Wednesday
Brother and Sisters in Jesus Christ –
Let us not deny the sincerity of a Muslim’s worship … anymore than we must not deny the sincerity of a Jew’s worship.

I’ve never heard anyone question a Muslim’s sincerity. They are not insincere, just wrong. But God looks upon the heart within and hears their prayers nonetheless.

 

[agiosotheos]

St. Paul disagrees with you. Read your bible and learn the truth, that God hears all prayers.

God may hear all prayers. That’s not the same thing as all attempts at worship being efficacious.

 

[agiosotheos]

If a person is seeking “God” and praying to “God” does God see and hear them?

God sees and hears them, but they do not see and hear God.

Reasonable people will be able to separate the terrorists (of whatever faith, or ideology) from the everyday person. And so will God.

Whether they are terrorists or not was not the primary consideration. Whether they have received the proper revelation to be able to know God and thus worship Him is what is being considered.

Did not John paul II kiss the koran? Why did he do that?

Because he was being foolishly ecumenical, and in doing so betrayed the faith that he claimed to uphold.

I suspect he did it because the Holy Name of Jesus Christ was within those pages, even amongst the distortions.

Milk with but a drop of poison in it should not be consumed. Likewise, documents with but a bit of AntiChrist in them should not be venerated.

And as for the Jews, if it were not for them worshipping the God of Abraham, issac and jacob, we would have no hope at all.

These apostates are not the same as the chosen people of the Old Covenants. The Holy Church of Christ is the successor to this heritage through its Jewish founders; it has the right worship, whereas the apostates who rejected the Word Incarnate have fallen from true faith and worship.

and how Jesus can offer Himself to those whose eyes were blinded for God’s purpose (the jewish remnant)

The Holy Catholic Church is the institution founded by those Jews who remained faithful. It is the closest thing to those truly faithful remnant known as the Apostles.

 

[Janet1983]

Let us not deny the sincerity of a Muslim’s worship … anymore than we must not deny the sincerity of a Jew’s worship.

I don’t deny anybody’s sincerity in their religion… they might be sincere, but they might also be sincerely wrong.

 

[benidict]

JMJ / MMM 091104 Wednesday
Brother and Sisters in Jesus Christ –
Let us not deny the sincerity of a Muslim’s worship … anymore than we must not deny the sincerity of a Jew’s worship.

In a small chapel that I frequently visit, where the Holy Eucharist is permanently kept, often when I pray there, a Muslim sometimes positions himself on the floor at the rear, on a small prayer rug, and silently prays.

In my heart, as he prays, I bless him and his prayer. And I hope he thinks of blessing me and my prayer also.

I do not say that Islam has the fulness of God’s Revelation as I am privileged to have. I recognize that the Roman Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ … and only in that Church is the Fulness that Christ gave to his Church.

But I dare not deny or question the sincerity of this Muslim’s worship of God … this Muslim who claims to be a descendant of Abraham … as do Jews also.

I close my posting with these words from CCC 841 … with no apology to those Catholics who have a blind spot and a weak heart in reference to Vatican II. CCC 841: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge of the last day.”
A special Blessing upon us all! John (JohnJFarren)

hi john. i do not question the sincerity of muslim worship. quite the contrary. the people i am training at present to go to war with in iraq and afghanistan, are so sincere,they will blow themselves up. strap bombs to pregnant women, and children who suffer from retardation. what a kind loving people. while it may only be be aproximately 10 percent that hate us. that means about 10 million of them. and please dont compare them with our jewish brothers john, our jewish brothers do not walk in to muslim houses in the west bank and kill women and children at point blank range, like our muslim Friends did on a regular basis in the former settlements. dont be deceived. you are of the house of islam, or the house of satan, in these peoples minds. oh and lets not forget the respect they have for other faiths. such as attacking jews during yom kippur. attacking the few remaining spiritual decendands of john the baptist in iraq. dont mean to be crass john. but i just dont think trying to accept or understand these people is the way to go. and honestly, they dont want diologue with our kind either.sorry.

 

[ralphinal]

There are sincere and devout Buhddists, There are sincere and devout Hindus. There are sincere and devout Muslims. All of that is true. That does not mean that they are right.

What it does mean is that the individual faith system that these people adhere to is important to them. That should not be ignored.

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 091105 Thursday
Dear People … Doxiemom … PaulDupre … benidict …Byzantine Wolf …and Ageosotheos … ralphinal –
Yes, Doxiemom, “It is through Jesus Christ that we are saved, and by Him alone.” We remember (I’m sure you do) that there are many people who do not know Jesus Christ (except in a silly way) who have embraced the Spirit of Jesus Christ … in selfish love for their neighbor. And so God is Loving them and guiding them toward their salvation through Jesus Christ. // And, Doxiemom, you mentioned, “Did not John Paul II kiss the Koran? Why did he do that?” And I believe it is right to say that John Paul II is a great saint and will be canonized by the Church in the not distant future. To which Ageosotheos, very failing in Spirit and grossly unkind, responded, “Because he was being foolishly ecumenical, and in doing so betrayed the faith…” Praise be to God for the faith of John Paul II!

PaulDupre, yes, although in some things, perhaps many things, Muslims are mistaken in their beliefs, they can most certainly be honestly and lovingly sincere. And that counts much with God and toward their salvation. God does look upon their hearts and hears their prayers in the Name of His Infinite Love.

And dear Byzantine Wolf, the teachings in the Koran are certainly not “completely contradictory and incompatible” with Christian doctrine. Some things are, yes. And some things taken from the Old Testament are incompatible with Christian charity. Have you read the Koran? Of course not.

I’m grateful to you, benidict, that you are training soldiers who will fight to defend the people of our country. Thank you truly. You, of course, do not believe that all those who profess Islam are horrible people, terrorists. The history of Islam has numerous outstanding examples of truly spiritual men who were Muslims. And I will not absolve all Jews from inhuman actions. I surely agree that dialogue and discourse with Muslims today, generally, is not THE solution to butchery. But understanding those we must deal with, must engage with, is certainly necessary (but not sufficient) … unless we ourselves would simply and blindly strike out in mindless butchery.

Conversion of non-Christians to Christianity … and specifically to the church Jesus Christ founded, the Roman Catholic Church … is an objective … and sometimes, necessarily, an ultimate objective. In the meantime … we pray … and seek to understand … and fight when necessary.

But let us always differentiate between real and loving Christians and our fakes … and between real and loving Jews and their fakes … and between real and loving Muslims and their fakes. In some ways … we’re all fakes.
All Blessing of the One Infinitely Loving God … in Jesus Christ … Who Loves forever all His creatures!
John (JohnJFarren)

 

[agiosotheos]

And, Doxiemom, you mentioned, “Did not John Paul II kiss the Koran? Why did he do that?” And I believe it is right to say that John Paul II is a great saint and will be canonized by the Church in the not distant future. To which Ageosotheos, very failing in Spirit and grossly unkind, responded, “Because he was being foolishly ecumenical, and in doing so betrayed the faith…” Praise be to God for the faith of John Paul II!

 

[dzheremi]

But it was foolish! What, the Pope is not allowed to make a mistake? Even certain popular Catholic apologists have written that it was a mistake. It might have been conceived with the best of intentions, but it was still wrong.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

And dear Byzantine Wolf, the teachings in the Koran are certainly not “completely contradictory and incompatible” with Christian doctrine. Some things are, yes. [emphasis mine]

“Some things?” Did you even read my post? “Some things?” Do these “some things” include the divinity of Christ as our Lord and God, the Blessed Trinity, as well as the fact that the crucifixion actually happened and that our Lord died and rose again on the third day? Do these “some things” include the inerrancy of scripture and God’s preservation of His Word and Church?

You say “some things” like Muslims prefer the color blue while Christians prefer the color red. There are deeper things at stake here. I have to admit I find it very sad that whenever this subject comes up Christians here seem keen to ignore the scripture in front of them (both Christian and non-Christian) and simply fall back on their personal opinion.

Have you read the Koran? Of course not.

…really wishes there was a ROFLMAO smilie to be inserted here

This…is…so…deliciously…ironic… To quote Bugs Bunny, “He don’t know me too well, do he?” I’m sending this link to Jakasaki and Nine_Two, they’ll get a kick out of this. Oh boy oh boy!

Have I read the Koran? Actually, yes, from cover to cover. It led to my brief conversion to Islam. The question is, have you read the Koran?