Do not deny sincerity of worship.

[Byzantine_Wolf]

In consequence these souls may make more or less permanent attempts at attaining God’s intimacy, especially if there remain traces of the Gospel in their religious teachings, as in the doctrines of Islam and in some of its traditions.

I’m sorry, but I still don’t quite follow this. The doctrines of Islam include the fact that Jesus wasn’t God, Jesus didn’t die on the cross and therefore wasn’t resurrected, that the Trinity is a lie, that those who believe in the Trinity are going to hell…all of this pretty much destroys the essence of the Gospel. If you dumb it down to something like “worship God,” then you could say Islam and Hinduism is the same.

 

[agiosotheos]

I’m sorry, but I still don’t quite follow this. The doctrines of Islam include the fact that Jesus wasn’t God, Jesus didn’t die on the cross and therefore wasn’t resurrected, that the Trinity is a lie, that those who believe in the Trinity are going to hell…all of this pretty much destroys the essence of the Gospel. If you dumb it down to something like “worship God,” then you could say Islam and Hinduism is the same.

Jesus is a Prophet and the Christ is a fundamental tenet it has in common with Christianity that even no other religion does.

 

[dzheremi]

I onced asked a Muslim here what calling Jesus “the Messiah” means in Islam. Whoever responded (Hadi, I think? It was a while ago) said that in Arabic “Masih” is apparently ultimately descended from “rub”, and since Jesus is said to have rubbed the blind man’s eyes with mud to cure his blindness, they call Him that as an honorific of sorts.

Yeah, okay, but…if that’s the depth of the lessons they’re getting from Jesus Christ’s miracles, then I don’t see why we should see this as some great link between Islam and Christianity.

And, of course, when we speak of Christ, to relegate Him to the status of a prophet only (and one who is below Muhammad, at that) is pure blasphemy, plain and simple.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

And, of course, when we speak of Christ, to relegate Him to the status of a prophet only (and one who is below Muhammad, at that) is pure blasphemy, plain and simple.

Precisely. When I speak of Christ, I speak of my Lord and Redeemer, not one prophet of many.

 

[agiosotheos]

Yes, it is no great link. But it is a link, nonetheless with a Christian particular. What other religion is willing to admit both that the God of Abraham is the only god and that Jesus is one of His prophets? I see a great reluctance to admit this commonality between Christianity and Islam, but logically I see no way around the conclusion that Islam is the next closest religion to Christianity, even more so than Judaism.

 

[sholland98]

St. Paul disagrees with you. Read your bible and learn the truth, that God hears all prayers.

God hears the prayers of believers. Those that acknowledge their need of a savior and have accepted the gift He made available to them. Prayers pass to the throne only through our intercessor, in his name, otherwise prayers are in vain. You, as a reader should know this to be the truth.

 

[Eucharisted]

JMJ / MMM 091104 Wednesday
Brother and Sisters in Jesus Christ –
Let us not deny the sincerity of a Muslim’s worship … anymore than we must not deny the sincerity of a Jew’s worship.

In a small chapel that I frequently visit, where the Holy Eucharist is permanently kept, often when I pray there, a Muslim sometimes positions himself on the floor at the rear, on a small prayer rug, and silently prays.

In my heart, as he prays, I bless him and his prayer. And I hope he thinks of blessing me and my prayer also.

I do not say that Islam has the fulness of God’s Revelation as I am privileged to have. I recognize that the Roman Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ … and only in that Church is the Fulness that Christ gave to his Church.

But I dare not deny or question the sincerity of this Muslim’s worship of God … this Muslim who claims to be a descendant of Abraham … as do Jews also.

I close my posting with these words from CCC 841 … with no apology to those Catholics who have a blind spot and a weak heart in reference to Vatican II. CCC 841: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge of the last day.”
A special Blessing upon us all! John (JohnJFarren)

Amen! Glory to God who knows best how to rouse us to adoration in spite of Satan’s work!

 

[StillWondering]

I’m devastated about learning all this now. I am really mixed up about how I feel about Rome now. I feel as if I can not trust her.

Think about it in terms of a mother who tries to teach her three sons well. Two of them grow up to be kind and gentle, shares their wealth with the poor, and devout believers. The third becomes a drug addict, hater of the world, and gets the chair for raping five women. Say their family name is the Jones. Well, you can then get mixed up feelings about the Jones and not sure if you can ever trust them after learning about the third son. Or you can notice that the fault and repercussions of the third son is due to this own sins. In fact, if someone despises the Jones for that son’s actions instead of comforting the family for their lost and the pain that have suffered.

The Pope is responsible for the Church teachings, not for what dissident or misguided Catholics due. The Holy Spirit continues to work within the Church to protect supreme authoritative teachings of Morals and Faith and to call up Saints when the Church is going into disrepair, but the Holy Spirit is not at fault of sinful men choose to disobey God.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Yes, it is no great link. But it is a link, nonetheless with a Christian particular. What other religion is willing to admit both that the God of Abraham is the only god and that Jesus is one of His prophets?

The Ebionite heresy, which was condemned by the Fathers of the Church, even as early as Ignatius.

Many of the Gnostic sects, which certainly had nothing in common with Judaism or orthodox Christianity, also used the name Jesus. That doesn’t mean we have “common ground” with them, or that their faith have any validity.

 

[PaulDupre]

God hears the prayers of believers. Those that acknowledge their need of a savior and have accepted the gift He made available to them. Prayers pass to the throne only through our intercessor, in his name, otherwise prayers are in vain. You, as a reader should know this to be the truth.

I notice you did not cite scripture to support your position. That is a no-no on a Catholic forum. We are all about scriptural authority here.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

• Acts 10:34-35

for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;

in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);

in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

• Rom 2:13-16

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JMJ / MMM 091104 Wednesday
Dear Responders –

Are those a new type of Transformer ?​

One wrote > “Neither Muslims, nor even Jews worship God. Only those who worship through the revelation of the Word Incarnate in the Holy Spirit are capable of legitimately worshiping God.” False. This view is un-Christlike and unworthy of sons and daughters of God and members of the Whole Christ.

And to another responder > No, Hitler and the Nazis were NOT sincere in their belief for the true good of their fellow man. They were blinded by their sin. Adolf Eichmann is an excellent example.

On the contrary, ISTM that many of those in Hitler’s “circle”, were, like Hitler, very sincere - in their totalitarianism; or what certain Christians are apt to call “the One True Faith”. Except that their faith was a form of Messianism not entirely compatible with RCism, or with Protestantism. But why should that make it any less sincere: because they did foul things ? How is that an objection to its being sincere ? Why is sincerity not fully compatible with shedding oceans of blood ?​

The fact that Nazi ideology did not recognise non-Aryans as fully human, and did recognise them as fit matter for extermination, doesn’t mean that ideology was not the work of (terribly) sincere men; after all, exterminating those regarded as sub-human vermin is no more a reason to deny that “Hitler and the Nazis were…sincere in their belief for the true good of their fellow man”, than exterminating an infestation of rats is a reason to think a man is insincere in saying his prayers. The various “untermenschen” just happened to be cast in the role of the vermin, and not in that of the “fellow-men” the Nazis wished to do good to. But how does disposing of the untermenschen make “Hitler and the Nazis” insincere in their desire to do good to their “fellow-men” ? Hitler, unlike some politicians, kept his promises - he got rid plenty of those he inteneded to get rid of; and he made Germany great again. By some standards he did an outstanding job of being Fuehrer - namely, those of his own ideology; which happened to conflict a bit too much with those of neighbouring countries.

And it is true that being sincere (in good things) may not be “right” – but it sure counts with God and Jesus Christ.## Depends what you include as good - what about the “holy war” (Blitzkrieg, if it’s the Nazi type of “holy war”) waged by Joshua & commanded by Samuel ? But for the passage of time, there is no moral difference between the Wannsee Conference of 1942, planning the total externination of European Jewry, and the command of Samuel to Saul to exterminate totally the whole number of the Amalekites. Had he lived in 1945, Samuel, far from being a Saint in the Roman Martyrology, would have been in the dock at Nuremberg, and have been hanged along with von Ribbentrop & others. But for the same passage of time, Hitler would be receiving veneration as a Saint. Which he was - but, so it turned out, as a Saint of Nazism & not of Christianity.

BTW - there is no way of knowing that Adolf Hitler is not prophesied in Psalm 110. The description is unfitting for Jesus, for whom it is too bloody; but it fits Hitler nicely. That Christians are accustomed to see Jesus in it comes of sheer habit.

I will not further follow these specific ideas.

STM you should have.​

Some other ideas that are closer to Jesus and the heart of God I probably will engage with.
Thank you. And Blessing! John (JohnJFarren)

 

[dzheremi]

Alright, Gottle of Geer, you hate Christianity. We get it. Sheesh.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

But it was foolish! What, the Pope is not allowed to make a mistake? Even certain popular Catholic apologists have written that it was a mistake. It might have been conceived with the best of intentions, but it was still wrong.

It was peanuts compared to that stuff at Assisi in 1986. ​

“Is the Pope a Catholic ?” "Well, on the one hand…that’s a definite ““maybe”.”

“Do ursine beings deposit their waste in the woods ?” “Could be; could be - though OTOH…”.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Alright, Gottle of Geer, you hate Christianity. We get it. Sheesh.

That answers what, exactly ?​

 

[sans_Delilah]

Neither Muslims, nor even Jews worship God. Only those who worship through the revelation of the Word Incarnate in the Holy Spirit are capable of legitimately worshiping God.

Did you really just say that Jews do not truly worship God?

You forget, I guess, that the first Christians, and Jesus himself, was a Jew, and that the Christian faith is built on a framework of Jewish tradition.

Clearly, you are ignorant of your own history.

St. Paul disagrees with you. Read your bible and learn the truth, that God hears all prayers.

I like this. This was a truly Christ-like response.

 

[dzheremi]

That answers what, exactly ?​

Not sure how anyone’s supposed to answer “what ifs” about the possible sainthood of Hitler, just saying you’ve been laying it on a bit thick since your de-conversion or whatever you’d call it.

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 091109 Monday
Hello Gottle of Geer –
I chose to have as my only response to you …
prayer for God’s Love and Mercy in Jesus Christ.
John (JohnJFarren)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Did you really just say that Jews do not truly worship God?

You forget, I guess, that the first Christians, and Jesus himself, was a Jew, and that the Christian faith is built on a framework of Jewish tradition.

Clearly, you are ignorant of your own history.

Actually he’s very well aware of his own history, as well as his own scripture.

“So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” [Matt 10:32-33]

“For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.” [Luke 9:26]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” [John 14:6]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die…” [John 11:25-26]

God is a Trinitarian God, and Christ is the Son in that Trinity. Each Person in the Trinity represents the fullness of God, and to deny one Person is to deny the entire Being of God. This has been orthodox Christian thought for the past 2000 years. As I always say, the Trinity is not a buffet where you can say, “I’ll have the Father, but I won’t have the Son…”

I have to admit I’m getting a bit tired of people saying Jesus was a Jew, as if that was it. He was more than that. He was the incarnated into a Jewish family and raised in the Jewish tradition, yes, but to say, “He was a Jew,” puts Him on the same level as Woody Allen. Yes, the human Christ was a Jew, but He was also God. To reject not only His godhood but His messianic status and His role as the Redeemer is to reject God and God’s manifestation to the world.

 

[agiosotheos]

Yes, it is no great link. But it is a link, nonetheless with a Christian particular. What other religion is willing to admit both that the God of Abraham is the only god and that Jesus is one of His prophets? I see a great reluctance to admit this commonality between Christianity and Islam, but logically I see no way around the conclusion that Islam is the next closest religion to Christianity, even more so than Judaism.

with the minor exception of Baha’i

 

[agiosotheos]

The Ebionite heresy, which was condemned by the Fathers of the Church, even as early as Ignatius.

Many of the Gnostic sects, which certainly had nothing in common with Judaism or orthodox Christianity, also used the name Jesus. That doesn’t mean we have “common ground” with them, or that their faith have any validity.

Heresies don’t really count. There are various heresies in various different religions that are considered within the umbrella of that religion. What you are speaking of were “Christian heresies”, whereas Islam is an entirely distinct religion that recognizes these things.

And yes, recognizing Jesus as a Prophet of the God of Abraham does establish a certain degree of common ground.