Do not deny sincerity of worship.

[agiosotheos]

The Ebionite heresy, which was condemned by the Fathers of the Church, even as early as Ignatius.

Many of the Gnostic sects, which certainly had nothing in common with Judaism or orthodox Christianity, also used the name Jesus. That doesn’t mean we have “common ground” with them, or that their faith have any validity.

Also, the Ebionites died out. I was talking about currently existent religious groups.

 

[agiosotheos]

Did you really just say that Jews do not truly worship God?

The group of apostates we today call Jews, yes.

You forget, I guess, that the first Christians, and Jesus himself, was a Jew, and that the Christian faith is built on a framework of Jewish tradition.

The first Christians, who were the true Jews, were not one with those today we call Jews. They accepted Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Lord, whereas those you call Jews rejected Him as a blasphemer. They cannot possibly be considered the same religious group, as such.

Clearly, you are ignorant of your own history.

Clearly you are ignorant of the humongous differences between the faith of the Apostles and those who are today called Jews.

 

[agiosotheos]

Actually he’s very well aware of his own history, as well as his own scripture.

“So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” [Matt 10:32-33]

“For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.” [Luke 9:26]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” [John 14:6]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die…” [John 11:25-26]

God is a Trinitarian God, and Christ is the Son in that Trinity. Each Person in the Trinity represents the fullness of God, and to deny one Person is to deny the entire Being of God. This has been orthodox Christian thought for the past 2000 years. As I always say, the Trinity is not a buffet where you can say, “I’ll have the Father, but I won’t have the Son…”

I have to admit I’m getting a bit tired of people saying Jesus was a Jew, as if that was it. He was more than that. He was the incarnated into a Jewish family and raised in the Jewish tradition, yes, but to say, “He was a Jew,” puts Him on the same level as Woody Allen. Yes, the human Christ was a Jew, but He was also God. To reject not only His godhood but His messianic status and His role as the Redeemer is to reject God and God’s manifestation to the world.

I actually identify Jesus as doctrinally more of a Christian than what today we call a Jew.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Heresies don’t really count. There are various heresies in various different religions that are considered within the umbrella of that religion. What you are speaking of were “Christian heresies”, whereas Islam is an entirely distinct religion that recognizes these things.

And yes, recognizing Jesus as a Prophet of the God of Abraham does establish a certain degree of common ground.

I consider Islam a heresy because it takes Christian beliefs and believes itself to come from that line. Remember that many of these “Christian heresies” didn’t consider themselves “Christian” other than the fact that they believed in a guy called Jesus. Many of the Gnostics were so warped that they read like an entirely different religion until you find one or two Biblical names. Some (such as the Manichaeans) even formed their own churches in opposition to the apostolic Church.

However, as with those heresies, the definition of words are important. When a Muslim says they believe in Jesus, they might as well say they believe in Abraham, because to them all they have is a prophet who served only as a prophet. When a Christian says they believe in Jesus, they refer to something far, far greater. I do agree there is common ground in the sense that it begins discussion towards who Jesus really is, but if we’re going to say Christians and Muslims worship the same God, then we are deceiving ourselves.

I actually identify Jesus as doctrinally more of a Christian than what today we call a Jew.

True, many people forget in the writings of the New Testament there is a different between ethnic Jews and religious Jews.

 

[firstmode]

I actually identify Jesus as doctrinally more of a Christian than what today we call a Jew.

I agree with your statements

Lets look at what early Christians thought of the Jews and their place with God:

THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (115 - 130AD)

Chapter 5.-The New Covenant, Founded on the Sufferings of Christ, Tends to Our Salvation, But to the Jews’ Destruction.

For to this end the Lord endured to deliver up His flesh to corruption, that we might be sanctified through the remission of sins, which is effected by His blood of sprinkling. For it is written concerning Him, partly with reference to Israel, and partly to us; and [the Scripture] saith thus: “He was wounded for our transgressions, and braised for our iniquities: with His stripes we are healed. He was brought as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb which is dumb before its shearer.” Therefore we ought to be deeply grateful to the Lord, because He has both made known to us things that are past, and hath given us wisdom concerning things present, and hath not left us without understanding in regard to things which are to come. Now, the Scripture saith, “Not unjustly are nets spread out for birds.” This means that the man perishes justly, who, having a knowledge of the way of righteousness, rushes off into the way of darkness. And further, my brethren: if the Lord endured to suffer for our soul, He being Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,” understand how it was that He endured to suffer at the hand of men. The prophets, having obtained grace from Him, prophesied concerning Him. And He (since it behoved Him to appear in flesh), that He might abolish death, and reveal the resurrection from the dead, endured [what and as He did], in order that He might fulfill the promise made unto the fathers, and by preparing a new people for Himself, might show, while He dwelt on earth, that He, when He has raised mankind, will also judge them. Moreover, teaching Israel, and doing so great miracles and signs, He preached [the truth] to him, and greatly loved him. But when He chose His own apostles who where to preach His Gospel, [He did so from among those] who were sinners above all sin, that He might show He came “not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Then He manifested Himself to be the Son of God. For if He had not come in the flesh, how could men have been saved by beholding Him? Since looking upon the sun which is to cease to exist, and is the work of His hands, their eyes are not able to bear his rays. The Son of God therefore came in the flesh with this view, that He might bring to a head the sum of their sins who had persecuted His prophets to the death. For this purpose, then, He endured. For God saith, "The stroke of his flesh is from them; " and “when I shall smite the Shepherd, then the sheep of the flock shall be scattered.” He himself willed thus to suffer, for it was necessary that He should suffer on the tree. For says he who prophesies regarding Him, “Spare my soul from the sword, fasten my flesh with nails; for the assemblies of the wicked have risen up against me.” And again he says, “Behold, I have given my back to scourges, and my cheeks to strokes, and I have set my countenance as a firm rock.”

 

[firstmode]

Chapter 13.-Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his fight hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh, for he is my first-born son.” And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” Ye see on whom he laid [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed, it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.”

 

[agiosotheos]

but if we’re going to say Christians and Muslims worship the same God, then we are deceiving ourselves.

I was the first person in this thread to explicitly deny that we worship the same God as Muslims or even Jews, so it should be clear that that was not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that Muslims are closer to us in our fundamental beliefs than any other existent non-Christian religious group (I pointed out later that Baha’is are in the same boat).

True, many people forget in the writings of the New Testament there is a different between ethnic Jews and religious Jews.

Well, I think Christianity is the religious successor to ancient Judaism. Paul even refers to Christians as the “true Jews”. What we call Jews today are essentially people who rejected the God that they for centuries had claimed to serve.

So, I’m not contradicting what you’re saying, but adding another layer of what it could mean to be religiously Jewish.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I was the first person in this thread to explicitly deny that we worship the same God as Muslims or even Jews, so it should be clear that that was not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that Muslims are closer to us in our fundamental beliefs than any other existent non-Christian religious group (I pointed out later that Baha’is are in the same boat).

Well, I think Christianity is the religious successor to ancient Judaism. Paul even refers to Christians as the “true Jews”. What we call Jews today are essentially people who rejected the God that they for centuries had claimed to serve.

So, I’m not contradicting what you’re saying, but adding another layer of what it could mean to be religiously Jewish.

I think we are, as they say, “violently in agreement”

 

[agiosotheos]

Nice. I had a feeling.