Do Not Turn Into a Fight - 10 Reasons to Love the EF

[thewanderer]

This is why sometimes it is wise to avoid these types of threads.

Anytime you prefer something, you prefer it because in your mind it is better in some way. You may prefer vanilla ice cream over vanilla frozen yogurt not only because it tastes better but because it is more filling.

Most people who prefer the EF prefer it not only because it is aesthetically pleasing. And honestly it is hard to explain one’s preference without implicitly or explicitly pitting the forms.

So… danger.

“He who has ears to hear”, let him listen.

So long as you accept both forms as valid then you accept that both have, objectively speaking, infinite Grace available.
Even if you think there is something objectively better about the EF you can still phrase it in a personal way here without breaking forum rules and in so doing you will help show others what you see as beautiful in the EF. I guess I just don’t understand why it would be too difficult to phrase something as a personal preference even if one believes there is more to it than simply a personal preference. All I know is that if you phrase it as such there is no way that you are breakin the forum rules and so I don’t see how there could be a problem. I am not trying to bait anybody into breaking forum rules, I just thought that people would appreciate a thread where theycan learn more about the EF and why people like it. (Again, note that people can talk about liking something without making any claim that they prefer it to something else, so even if you think a statement of personal preference is too dangerous, surely I you phrase it as simply something you like then no one can possibly have a problem with it)

 

[TrueLight]

Not impressed by the video but I did get a Facebook friend request from what appears to be a model.

LOL. You go ahead and believe that.

 

[TrueLight]

So long as you accept both forms as valid then you accept that both have, objectively speaking, infinite Grace available.
Even if you think there is something objectively better about the EF you can still phrase it in a personal way here without breaking forum rules and in so doing you will help show others what you see as beautiful in the EF. I guess I just don’t understand why it would be too difficult to phrase something as a personal preference even if one believes there is more to it than simply a personal preference. All I know is that if you phrase it as such there is no way that you are breakin the forum rules and so I don’t see how there could be a problem. I am not trying to bait anybody into breaking forum rules, I just thought that people would appreciate a thread where theycan learn more about the EF and why people like it. (Again, note that people can talk about liking something without making any claim that they prefer it to something else, so even if you think a statement of personal preference is too dangerous, surely I you phrase it as simply something you like then no one can possibly have a problem with it)

Is the purpose of the thread to see if anyone who prefers the EF can phrase it as a personal preference?

 

[ProVobis]

Anytime you prefer something, you prefer it because in your mind it is better in some way. You may prefer vanilla ice cream over vanilla frozen yogurt not only because it tastes better but because it is more filling.

Most people who prefer the EF prefer it not only because it is aesthetically pleasing. And honestly it is hard to explain one’s preference without implicitly or explicitly pitting the forms.

So… danger.

“He who has ears to hear”, let him listen.

This is especially true to anyone given a preference test. He has to decide on each question which one of the two he either likes better or dislikes worse. So out of a 100 questions out comes your personality trying to match your compatibility with someone else’s. I think I’ll leave the rest to the psychologists and marketeers.

Is the purpose of the thread to see if anyone who prefers the EF can phrase it as a personal preference?

Without annoying someone? Good luck with that.

 

[thewanderer]

Is the purpose of the thread to see if anyone who prefers the EF can phrase it as a personal preference?

Not at all. I’m sorry if it came across as though that weere my intent.

The purpose of this thread is to allow people the opportunity to show others the beauty of the EF. However, because of the sensitive nature of this topic and the forum rules it turns out that most people who are in the position to help others see the beauty of the EF are afraid to do so. I was simply trying to come up with a way they could still help show others the beauty of the EF without getting in trouble with the Mods.

Another possibility would of course be if they got the mods to proof-read their post beforehand… but that seems like it would just overload the mods and I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate it if a ton of people started doing this.

 

[TrueLight]

Not at all. I’m sorry if it came across as though that weere my intent.

The purpose of this thread is to allow people the opportunity to show others the beauty of the EF.

Ok. I’m not saying you came across that way. I’m just asking.

Another possibility would of course be if they got the mods to proof-read their post beforehand… but that seems like it would just overload the mods and I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate it if a ton of people started doing this.

You must be kidding.

 

[thewanderer]

Ok. I’m not saying you came across that way. I’m just asking.

You must be kidding.

I’m not really sure why you say that. I wasn’t implying it as a good option. I don’t really think its feasible which is why I suggested that people phrase it as a personal preferance and didn’t bring this up earlier. I hardly expect people to do this or think that there is a real need to. Rather it is simply one of the ways someone who wants to post to this thread but is afraid of getting in trouble could make sure that their post will not get them into trouble. Please don’t read anything else into what I am saying.

 

[englishredrose]

Forgive me for not being Catholic

but what is the difference between the two not knowing what the initials actually stand for though guess OF is Ordinary Form but what does EF mean Eucharistic Form?

 

[ProVobis]

Forgive me for not being Catholic

but what is the difference between the two not knowing what the initials actually stand for though guess OF is Ordinary Form but what does EF mean Eucharistic Form?

That’s the problem with using acronyms. EF can represent a lot of things but on this forum it is the acronym for Forma Extraordinaria or Extraordinary Form or the 1962 Missal of Blessed Pope John XXIII.

 

[Rich_C]

Forgive me for not being Catholic

but what is the difference between the two not knowing what the initials actually stand for though guess OF is Ordinary Form but what does EF mean Eucharistic Form?

Loose Analogy;
OF = Rite II
EF = Rite I

The differences between OF and EF are much greater than between Rite II and Rite I, however.

 

[archangel04]

But he DOES make the error of claiming that the ‘commander’ is ‘behind’ the people in the OF. Which is simply nonsense because

a) the priest in the OF is in front of the people. He is facing towards them, true, but is in front of them.

b) the real commander is in fact CHRIST - who is certainly front and centre of both the OF and EF Masses, regardless of the posture of the priest.

What? You completely took my post out of context! I simply stated why I prefer the ad-orientem posture! Christ is the king, I would think Michael would be the commander of His military

I simply stated that I prefer the feeling of being led by the priest into one direction, notice I said “external” in my original post. It assures me that we all have our place in this world, and should humbly accept it. I am very fond of military and law enforcement, since it’s my field, that’s why I used that example.

 

[archangel04]

He or she DID use the word ‘me’ - as in ‘if I am going into battle I want my commander in front of me, not behind me’.

And he or she WAS talking about the OF - in a manner that really made it sound like he or she had never even attended one, or at least never noticed where the priest and the altar are located in relation to the congregation!

And yes, if people make ignorant comments disparaging the EF such as how they don’t like the priest ‘turning his back on the people’ I can and do pick them apart. Not on here, there are more than enough more able defenders here than I, and they jump in at the drop of a hat, God bless them

I am a he, thank God! I grew up in Spanish OF all my life and served as an altar boy for ten years. The mass which I grew up always had guitars and hand holding.

 

[archangel04]

Does that seem likely? Given that archangel04 neither names nor describes the OF, I think it is more likely that he is not talking about the OF at all, but is thinking about the TLM, and using a military image to describe it.

Thanks. God bless you.

Yes! Exactly! BTW the mass that I usually attend due to my job is a Latin OF ad-orientem! St. John Cantius! Oh yeah!!

 

[LilyM]

Archangel, this thread is titled ‘reasons to love the EF’, not ‘reasons to love ad orientem’, since as you rightly pointed out ad orientem is not unique to the EF. In fact the OP explicitly said it was about explaining why people love the EF. So it was more than reasonable for me to assume that you were speaking about the EF with your comments.

Same with the idea of the ‘commander’ being the priest. The only difference with ad orientem is the position of the priest, not anything or anyone else. So itis more than reasonable for me to assume you were talking about the priest as the ‘commander’.

I’d almost buy the rest of what you were saying - if you hadn’t put in the words ‘instead of behind’ at the end of your sentence. Those words mean something. Let’s unpack what the normal meaning is that someone would take from them.

Now, if I said to you ‘I love my teacher because she stands at the front of the room, and doesn’t roam around everywhere during class’, would you understand by that that the idea of a teacher roaming around the classroom was completely hypothetical? Something that never does and couldn’t possibly happen? Something that I’d never either seen happen or heard of happening?

That I really only meant the first half of the sentence - ‘I love her because she stands at the front of the room’ and meant absolutely nothing by the last half of the sentence but a random string of words that added nothing further? Of course not, or I wouldn’t say them.

You’d assume that I specifically mentioned ‘roaming around the room’ because it is something that can and moreover does happen in classrooms, no? I wouldn’t say ‘I love my teacher because she stands in front of the room instead of turning into an ostrich’, would I? Because there’s never any possibility of any teacher turning into an ostrich!

So - how is it unreasonable to assume, when you say ‘I want my commander in front of me instead of behind’, meaning ‘I want ad orientem’, that it means that in some forms of the Mass, or at least some Masses, the ‘commander’, whoever they may be, is indeed ‘behind’ the ‘troops’, or the congregation? The very idea of which is preposterous. The ‘commander’ in every Mass, ad orientem or not, is front and centre in front of the congregation.

 

[Rabbity]

I really like #6 in the original post.

I’m a language geek so the more Latin the better!

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Archangel, this thread is titled ‘reasons to love the EF’, not ‘reasons to love ad orientem’, since as you rightly pointed out ad orientem is not unique to the EF. In fact the OP explicitly said it was about explaining why people love the EF. So it was more than reasonable for me to assume that you were speaking about the EF with your comments.

Same with the idea of the ‘commander’ being the priest. The only difference with ad orientem is the position of the priest, not anything or anyone else. So itis more than reasonable for me to assume you were talking about the priest as the ‘commander’.

I’d almost buy the rest of what you were saying - if you hadn’t put in the words ‘instead of behind’ at the end of your sentence. Those words mean something. Let’s unpack what the normal meaning is that someone would take from them.

Now, if I said to you ‘I love my teacher because she stands at the front of the room, and doesn’t roam around everywhere during class’, would you understand by that that the idea of a teacher roaming around the classroom was completely hypothetical? Something that never does and couldn’t possibly happen? Something that I’d never either seen happen or heard of happening?

That I really only meant the first half of the sentence - ‘I love her because she stands at the front of the room’ and meant absolutely nothing by the last half of the sentence but a random string of words that added nothing further? Of course not, or I wouldn’t say them.

You’d assume that I specifically mentioned ‘roaming around the room’ because it is something that can and moreover does happen in classrooms, no? I wouldn’t say ‘I love my teacher because she stands in front of the room instead of turning into an ostrich’, would I? Because there’s never any possibility of any teacher turning into an ostrich!

So - how is it unreasonable to assume, when you say ‘I want my commander in front of me instead of behind’, meaning ‘I want ad orientem’, that it means that in some forms of the Mass, or at least some Masses, the ‘commander’, whoever they may be, is indeed ‘behind’ the ‘troops’, or the congregation? The very idea of which is preposterous. The ‘commander’ in every Mass, ad orientem or not, is front and centre in front of the congregation.

I understood what he said exactly how he explained it later. It seems you’re grasping at straws to pick a fight. If the person says he meant something a certain way, then give him the benefit of the doubt and quit believing that he’s some sort of liar.

 

[thewanderer]

I understood what he said exactly how he explained it later. It seems you’re grasping at straws to pick a fight. If the person says he meant something a certain way, then give him the benefit of the doubt and quit believing that he’s some sort of liar.

Agreed. That is one of the things I was hoping to avoid in this thread. Please assume good intentions on the part of those posting or there is no way this thread will get anywhere.

 

[LilyM]

I understood what he said exactly how he explained it later. It seems you’re grasping at straws to pick a fight. If the person says he meant something a certain way, then give him the benefit of the doubt and quit believing that he’s some sort of liar.

I never said he was a liar. I never thought he was a liar. I apologise if I ever gave the impression that I did.

I totally get it that what he said was intended in a very different way than how I took it. What someone intends to express and what they actually express can be entirely different things. Obviously you saw the intent where I didn’t. And we are all guilty of sometimes expressing ourselves poorly, or at least ambiguously.

I was simply explaining how I took what he said and why I understood it my way. I am not ‘grasping at straws’ or looking to be offended. I simply took it the way I took it, and I don’t think I was either unreasonable or crazy in my interpretation.

And if someone takes something you said the wrong way, you shouln’t accuse them of calling you a liar, when they are merely stating that they understood things differently than you. And you shouldn’t assume that they are wrong. Or that the way you meant to express yourself is the only possible or reasonable way that your words can be taken.

Sheesh!

 

[archangel04]

I never said he was a liar. I never thought he was a liar. I apologise if I ever gave the impression that I did.

I totally get it that what he said was intended in a very different way than how I took it. What someone intends to express and what they actually express can be entirely different things. Obviously you saw the intent where I didn’t. And we are all guilty of sometimes expressing ourselves poorly, or at least ambiguously.

I was simply explaining how I took what he said and why I understood it my way. I am not ‘grasping at straws’ or looking to be offended. I simply took it the way I took it, and I don’t think I was either unreasonable or crazy in my interpretation.

And if someone takes something you said the wrong way, you shouln’t accuse them of calling you a liar, when they are merely stating that they understood things differently than you. And you shouldn’t assume that they are wrong. Or that the way you meant to express yourself is the only possible or reasonable way that your words can be taken.

Sheesh!

You basically did call me a liar. In fact you had me questioning myself. At no point did I meant to make the OF inferior. I know what the title is, in fact in my previous post I was defending that title and asking people to stick to it. The EF does not allow for any option other than “facing east.” That’s one of the reasons why I like it. Now, in my OPINION I do feel as-orientem posture is better when it comes to liturgical orientation. This does not mean that I see the opposite as invalid, nor lacking in faith. The issue I have with it is that sometimes the priest seems to have to make a performance out of the mass, my experience. This is why when I said leading us I used the work “external” because yes versus populum also leads us through the liturgy, but externally it does not. Anyone leading a crowd facing that crowd will eventually trip

Now another reason I love the EF is the asperges me and the prayers at the foot of the altar.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ok, so another thread was started recently with this post.

However, the thread looks like it is heading towards a battle between the two forms of the Mass. I think that it would be wonderful if we could have a charitable thread where those who prefer the EF could explain why they prefer it without being attacked for their preferences. So I decided to start another thread about it in the hopes that it will turn out ok. This doesn’t mean there can’t be discussion about any points brought up. But please make sure that any such comments are done in an extremely charitable manner that will not come across as an attack against those with a different preferance from yourself.

I for one am very interested in hearing more of the reasons why people prefer one form to the other, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who would be interested. So if anyone is interested in sharing, please feel free to post here.

As I pointed out in the first closed thread there are glaring errors in the list that the original poster put up but I now realize that any disagreement is seen as fighting so I won’t point them out again.