Do Not Turn Into a Fight - 10 Reasons to Love the EF

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RogerDeCourcy said:
I do not expect people in a third world country to pay £100K for a pipe organ. But even then, modern synths do a fair approximation, if you don’t just buy something off the shelf.

What I do object to is a Western, 100 year-old parish leaving a pipe organ to gather dust while a guitarist plays modern hymns, badly. I also object to African or Phillipino stylings used to excuse English or US cheesy music. We can do better.
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I agree. That’s why we have our own. In our diocese, our bishop has required that the psalms be chanted or sung. The chanting style was the one used in the age-old Filipino tradition of retelling the Passion.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
I do not expect people in a third world country to pay £100K for a pipe organ. But even then, modern synths do a fair approximation, if you don’t just buy something off the shelf.

What I do object to is a Western, 100 year-old parish leaving a pipe organ to gather dust while a guitarist plays modern hymns, badly. I also object to African or Phillipino stylings used to excuse English or US cheesy music. We can do better.
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And most parishes in Canada are far far younger than that.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
I believe he means that each priest does not try to inject his own personality into the Mass. Assuming that’s the meaning, I agree. To use a musical analogy, you can hear pianists all play the same piece, and they will all “make the piece their own”. A priest should not be trying to make the Mass his own.

In regard to the sermon/homily, it’s pretty clear that his personality will come across. He would have to put on an act to do otherwise. In this regard, yes, it’s fine, as long as he’s not trying to be a showman and make it about himself.
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I’m still really curious as to whether people see this as intrinsic to the EF or just something that priests in the EF make more of an effort to portray?

To be honest… this hasn’t been my experience with the EF Masses that I have attended, at least, if I am understanding what you mean by this. The accent of the priest, how fast he speaks, the character of his movements, slow and statly, smoothly,jerky, quick and precise, all show aspects of the priests personality both in the EF and OF.

So just for clarification,
  1. Are these the sorts of things you are talking about?
  2. Do you see this as intrinsic to the EF? or just something that more often is found in the EF?
 
I’ve only attended a Low EF Mass, but I think the thing I liked most about it was kneeling on the prie-deu to receive Communion. Of course, kneeling isn’t limited to the EF. I also loved how quiet and peaceful it was. There were only seven or eight of us at this Mass, I believe. I also love the veils. I have two but I don’t wear them to my parish (OF) because I don’t like to draw attention to myself.
 
For all of the reasons given in the first post, PLUS:

The Sacred Silence that allows us to listen for God’s words & to just gaze upon the Cross/ the Tabernacle…to adore Him.

The Prayers at the “Foot of the Altar”, prayers that beseech God to make us worthy to celebrate the Mass that is about to happen “Send forth thy light & thy truth; they have conducted me & brought me unto Thy holy hill & into Thy Tabernacles”

I love the Roman Canon in which we are gathered together with the Communion of the Saints in heaven…

The last gospel of John is a must for me:" All things were made by Him & without Him was made nothing that was made.Within Him was life, & the life was the light of men, &
the light shineth in the dark, &** the darkness knew Him not.**"

I’m drawn to the fact that almost everyone stays after Mass for “Thank You for the Mass”, prayers. Lord; help me use the grace I received to live a better life & help me to share Your blessing with others".

PLus,
The Lord’s Prayer
Hail Mary
the Memorare
etc.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
It’s not mere opinion. If no standard is set in music, then what you’ll hear is whatever the locals can muster. This is fine for local theatre. It’s not fine for a sacred rite, unless the rite is also local. The Catholic Mass is no mere local ceremony. The laity have a right to a a Mass said according to the mind of the Church, not what local liturgists favour.

There are polka Masses on Youtube.

When I hear the word culture, I reach for my shotgun. ‘Culture’ is what the locals make up. If they’re ex-colonials, it’s fairly recent. It’s a useful vector for creative liturgists to add banality to the rite. The odds that local liturgists are great artists is small.

The Mass is supposed to point to something eternal. The current trend to chase after popular taste works against this.
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You are really really out of line here.
One of the most offensive posts I’ve seen on this site.
You completely misunderstand “culture” and it’s value to the Church and the various peoples that make it up.
Your post also misunderstands liturgy, who decides how it will be conducted, and what the substance of sacred is…
 
Jane_of_Arc said:
The last gospel of John is a must for me:" All things were made by Him & without Him was made nothing that was made.Within Him was life, & the life was the light of men, &
the light shineth in the dark, &** the darkness knew Him not.**"
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I agree. Hearing the priest read the beginning of the Gospel of John at the end of every Mass is such a great epilogue, if you will, that brings the whole act together by summarizing it with inspired words. And when we all kneel as he says “verbum caro factum est” I can’t help but think of the Blessed Sacrament we just received. It’s great.
 
I agree with most everyone else’s posts, also:
  1. I like not having to worry about helping my children to blow noses, etc. then shaking hands with others at Sign of Peace. I know people behind me think I am unhygienic - - yet it is awkward not to shake hands. I simply don’t have to worry about that at EF.
  2. Not having to sit through the agony of offensive music, that I have observed sometimes at OF.
  3. The joy of getting to kneel to receive, and not feeling like I have to bow, say amen, choose whether or not to receive in the hand, receive, decide whether to receive from the chalice, etc. all while shuffling along.
  4. The beautiful reverent silence.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
The Mass is supposed to point to something eternal. The current trend to chase after popular taste works against this.
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Indeed. This reflects my experience of the OF from the 1970s through the 1990s. Once I discovered the EF, I never looked back.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
I do not expect people in a third world country to pay £100K for a pipe organ. But even then, modern synths do a fair approximation, if you don’t just buy something off the shelf.

What I do object to is a Western, 100 year-old parish leaving a pipe organ to gather dust while a guitarist plays modern hymns, badly. I also object to African or Phillipino stylings used to excuse English or US cheesy music. We can do better.
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Because guitarists who play at Mass are terrible, right?

Like triumphguy said, most Canadian parishes are much more than less than 100 years old. Which sort of goes back to your hated word; “culture”.

North America is not a euro-centric culture anymore. As St. Kolbe learned while in Japan, sometimes European Catholicism doesn’t work and you need to change things up a bit. Not the doctrine mind you, but the approach.
 
Melchior said:
Because guitarists who play at Mass are terrible, right?
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Not usually terrible. It’s just bland music played on an an instrument whose sound has bad connotations for a Mass.

Last OF I went to, it wasn’t terrible but it sounded like a 70’s soft folk rock combo with female singers harmonising. Quite dated. As to the lyrics … ummmm … again, bland. Ok for lift music but an odd addition to the Mass of the Ages, historically.

Want people to feel drawn to holiness? Don’t make sounds that are evoke mundane things.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Not usually terrible. It’s just bland music played on an an instrument whose sound has bad connotations for a Mass.
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Subjective.
RogerDeCourcy said:
Want people to feel drawn to holiness? Don’t make sounds that are evoke mundane things.
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Like low volume mumbling, or Mass in a language you don’t understand?

Anyway, what I like about the EF is that it offers yet one more authentic expression for Catholics to live out their Faith.
 
Melchior said:
Like low volume mumbling, or Mass in a language you don’t understand?

Anyway, what I like about the EF is that it offers yet one more authentic expression for Catholics to live out their Faith.
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The first is an unworthy remark, second, I can read translations and I’m picking up more and more as I go along and your last remark seems to contradict your first two.
 
  1. It is the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Christ on Cavalry to the Heavenly Father.
  2. We can kneel at the altar rail and receive the Body of Christ on the toungue.
  3. Being recited in Latin, it gives a sense of mystery and the sacred.
  4. The EF mass has sanctified and inspired countless Saints.
  5. The EF emphasizes the awareness of sin and self-denial.
  6. It is “the closest thing to Heaven on earth”.
  7. The prayers of the EF frequently invoke the saints by name and beg their intercession.
  8. The priest faces Christ, along with the congregation.
  9. No priest jokes, altar girls or army of lay ministers.
  10. And most importantly, the Real Presence of Our Lord!
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Not subjective at all. 70’s pop stylings on guitar are not going to evoke connotations beyond their era. Girls with long hair, bell bottoms, peace symbols. Not Calvary.
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Quite subjective. Music as a whole is subjective. Even musicians cannot agree with what is the best genre, what genre provokes what feeling, and even what brand of instruments are the best ones.
RogerDeCourcy said:
The first is an unworthy remark, second, I can read translations and I’m picking up more and more as I go along and your last remark seems to contradict your first two.
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The first remark is quite applicable. Just because you choose to brush it off as “unworthy” does not make it so. The reality is that low pitched sounds can be mundane, as can mumbling, as can words in a language one doesn’t understand.

How is it my second remark contradicts anything? “Latin isn’t for me, but I like how it can be good for others” is compatible with everything I’ve said in this thread, and others, and seems like an entirely reasonable response when compared to “everything must be done this way, and if you disagree lets make some snide comments, poor attempts at humor, and generally make ‘observations’ that point toward the sky falling if people don’t use Latin, despite the fact that some Rites never used Latin in the first place, yet are still authentically Catholic”.

As has been mentioned a few times now, we need to look at the whole Catholic Church, not just our little slice.
 
  1. Ad Orientem
  2. Latin
  3. The sung third Confiteor in the Solemn Mass
  4. The *Suscipe Sancta Trinitas *prayer
  5. The sudden Nobis quoque peccatoribus in the midst of silence
  6. The bow at the end of the Prayers at the foot of the altar
  7. The Purification of the fingers of the celebrant
  8. The triple Kyrie
  9. The ringing of the bells at the Sanctus
  10. The syncronized movements of the priest, deacon and sub-deacon in the Solemn Mass
 
I think the Latin Rite is going to return to something close to the older form. I don’t think the newer form can get any simpler or more populist and the clergy will realise over time why the old one was done the way it was done.

It reminds me of the franchise model. You can make some concessions to local taste but if you want to repeat the success of the brand in your allocated area, you don’t stray too far from the formula.
 
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