Do nuns actually get married to Jesus?

[hermitcrab]

Shaking my head; there is no choice here but to agree to disagree.

Because what you believe is not the reality many live as Brides of Christ.
Period.

why does it matter so much to you that you limit your thinking?

I can and do accommodate what you think is true.

Can you not do the same?

All religious life begins and ends in humility

Also, there are huge cultural differences at work here; you are in the US and I am in the UK.
Things changed there that did not change here.

Always awed by the diverisity of this life.

MTD:

The ones I visited did not make sweeping changes. A sampling: Dominican Sisters of Mary, Sister Servants of the Eternal Word, Dominican Monastery of St. Jude, Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration.

I’ve been to five cloistered monasteries.

No, we cannot agree that some orders have marriage to Christ while others don’t. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman directed to begetting children. Nuns make a vow of chastity (i.e., not to get married) in order that they may “thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit” (1 Cor. 7:34). And because this consecrated celibacy is undertaken for the precise reason of being able to concentrate on loving God, it is likened to a marriage covenant. But the nuns do not vow to take Jesus as their husband; they vow chastity. The Church does not recognize the former but the latter.

I don’t know how else to explain it. Marriage, spouse, etc. are used all the time to describe the relationship of a consecrated person to Christ, and it’s sometimes hard to see that it’s only figurative language. But I still maintain that it’s similar to our use of father and son to designate the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The vows are not symbolic, but the ring is. So are the terms marriage, etc.

Thank you.

Maria

 

[MTD]

Because what you believe is not the reality many live as Brides of Christ.
Period.

All, not just some, live as brides of Christ. But that doesn’t mean the language isn’t figurative.

why does it matter so much to you that you limit your thinking?

Maybe because I like to think of realities realistically. Perhaps I’m a theologian at heart and don’t like simplistic ways of thinking.

I can and do accommodate what you think is true.

Can you not do the same?

I do know what you’re talking about; you’re talking about nuns who are very united to Jesus. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree that the terminology we use to describe that union is not figurative.

Also, there are huge cultural differences at work here; you are in the US and I am in the UK.
Things changed there that did not change here.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this. The communities I’ve visited always spoke of being brides of Christ, just like they do in the UK.

I think we should just agree to disagree. I’m sorry to seem so narrow-minded.

Maria

 

[hermitcrab]

Interesting reply; yes it really is so very, very simple that it can easily be missed if you think too much… I am not a t heologian, just a simple soul.

No, not all; I am not sure how old you are? Forgive the question. It is simply not possible in this age for younger folk to understand what religious life was like pre-vatican 2. So much has been lost.

If you saw the Nuns Story film? In the book, there were no wedding gowns, because that Order lived an active apostolate.

Have you read In this House of Brede, or the Sr mary Francis " A Right to be Merry"?

Those simple books will give a flavour of a religious life that has almost been totally lost now.

The fullness of the Consecration has gone; the deep mystical mysteries of that life has been lost.

And there is still a great cultural gulf between the two nations; I see it here on many of the threads. I have to bite my tongue and know that.

No, not narrow minded; how can the younger ones ever know what was lost?

But no, it is not figurative language; please take my word on that. It is simply not.

All, not just some, live as brides of Christ. But that doesn’t mean the language isn’t figurative.

Maybe because I like to think of realities realistically. Perhaps I’m a theologian at heart and don’t like simplistic ways of thinking.

I do know what you’re talking about; you’re talking about nuns who are very united to Jesus. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree that the terminology we use to describe that union is not figurative.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this. The communities I’ve visited always spoke of being brides of Christ, just like they do in the UK.

I think we should just agree to disagree. I’m sorry to seem so narrow-minded.

Maria

 

[Shoshana]

Interesting reply; yes it really is so very, very simple that it can easily be missed if you think too much… I am not a t heologian, just a simple soul.

No, not all; I am not sure how old you are? Forgive the question. It is simply not possible in this age for younger folk to understand what religious life was like pre-vatican 2. So much has been lost.

If you saw the Nuns Story film? In the book, there were no wedding gowns, because that Order lived an active apostolate.

Have you read In this House of Brede, or the Sr mary Francis " A Right to be Merry"?

Those simple books will give a flavour of a religious life that has almost been totally lost now.

The fullness of the Consecration has gone; the deep mystical mysteries of that life has been lost.

And there is still a great cultural gulf between the two nations; I see it here on many of the threads. I have to bite my tongue and know that.

No, not narrow minded; how can the younger ones ever know what was lost?

But no, it is not figurative language; please take my word on that. It is simply not.

I do concur…if only one has to read St John of the Cross or Theresa of Avila to try to understand the beauty of such mysticism. I can poo-poo away all and say it is symbolic…but you lose something. You lose a lot…

 

[hermitcrab]

Shoshona, thank you for this.

Yes you are so right.

And thank the OP for startting this thread as it has helped me hugely to need to try express this.

I would now rather not continue this thread on open forum; by all means PM me.

Thank you

I do concur…if only one has to read St John of the Cross or Theresa of Avila to try to understand the beauty of such mysticism. I can poo-poo away all and say it is symbolic…but you lose something. You lose a lot…

 

[MTD]

Interesting reply; yes it really is so very, very simple that it can easily be missed if you think too much… I am not a t heologian, just a simple soul.

I’m not a theologian either, but I like theology.

No, not all; I am not sure how old you are? Forgive the question.

In my profile it says 21.

It is simply not possible in this age for younger folk to understand what religious life was like pre-vatican 2. So much has been lost.

I disagree. Those terms are still used all the time. In 1999 the Holy See came out with a new document regulating papal enclosure; the name of that document is “Verbi Sponsa” (Spouse of the Word).

If you saw the Nuns Story film? In the book, there were no wedding gowns, because that Order lived an active apostolate.

No, I haven’t seen it.

Have you read In this House of Brede, or the Sr mary Francis " A Right to be Merry"?

I’ve read:
My Beloved: The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas (USA)
A Right to Be Merry by Mother Mary Francis (USA)
Love Is My Calling by Sr. Mary Laurence (UK)
One Nun to Another by Sr. Mary Laurence (UK)

And there is still a great cultural gulf between the two nations; I see it here on many of the threads. I have to bite my tongue and know that.

Well, this disagreement between you and me doesn’t have to do with that. Did you take a look at the websites I gave of some communities I visited? If you look at one of the pages of the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, you will see that it says, “The first holy profession is the nun’s wedding day, for it is on this day that she is espoused to Jesus Christ.” Further down the page it also says, “After the newly professed nun receives a blessing from the priest, she receives a blessed profession ring. This ring is to symbolize her contract of virginity and perpetual chastity. The ring is the seal of the Holy Spirit. Through the reception of this ring, she is espoused forever to Jesus Christ. She will be known for all eternity as the spouse of God.”

See? It’s not any different here in the USA.

But no, it is not figurative language; please take my word on that. It is simply not.

Do you also think that Father and Son for the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity is not figurative language?

Maria

 

[Shoshana]

Do you also think that Father and Son for the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity is not figurative language?

Maria

My faith dictates to me that it is not figurative…is the Holy Eucharist just symbolic of the body and the blood of Jesus?

 

[nMbR1BaRlOwGiRl]

check out the ring:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6803/ossrprofessionringqx3.jpg

WOW! That ring is incredible!

 

[nMbR1BaRlOwGiRl]

Do you also think that Father and Son for the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity is not figurative language?

Maria

It’s not figurative… What are you saying?

 

[MTD]

My faith dictates to me that it is not figurative…is the Holy Eucharist just symbolic of the body and the blood of Jesus?

That’s not a good comparison. We believe there are three Persons in one God just as we believe the Holy Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. That has nothing to do with what I said about terms being figurative of infinite realities.

It’s not figurative… What are you saying?

I’m saying that finite human terms cannot adequately describe infinite realities. A father and son is proper to material reality only; a spirit cannot beget a son, properly speaking. However, we are finite beings composed of body and soul; the closest material terms we can come to in order to express the infinite mystery of the First and Second Persons of the Trinity is father and son. But the First and Second Persons of the Blessed Trinity are not a true father and son; father and son is a creation of God. God is infinitely beyond and before that. But in order that we might understand even a little of the mystery of the Trinity, God uses our human terms to explain His infinite Self.

In this life we have two types of knowledge concerning God: one affirmative and the other negative. Affirmative knowledge scans the perfections and beauty of the heavens, the earth, and all creatures and enables us to know how much more perfect and beautiful is the Creator who made them, for in Him all these things are contained in an infinitely eminent manner. We call this knowledge affirmative or positive because it affirms and confesses that all these perfections exist in God.

Negative knowledge is that which presupposes the lowliness and finiteness of all our concepts and hence denies all perfections of God as conceived according to our mode of understanding. In other words, it states that God is not great or beautiful or wise or powerful in the way in which our minds conceive these perfections, because He is all these things in a much different manner which created intellects cannot comprehend. In this way we praise and glorify Him the more because we confess that His grandeur is infinite, immense, incomprehensible, and ineffable.

…]

Therefore, in order to know something of God as He is in Himself, we must leave behind all the creatures of heaven and earth and soar far beyond all that can be sensed, imagined, or humanly understood in order to arrive at that sustance which surpasses all sensation and understanding and infinitely surpasses all created things. It has neither figure nor quanitity nor quality nor any other accident; neither does it admit of composition or change; therefore it is not subject to division or diminution. It neither perceives by means of any corporeal sense nor is it perceived by any corporeal sense. It is not a soul nor any potency of the soul; neither is it a body or any form of the body. It cannot cease to be nor ever be more than it is because it is already the plenitude of being. It is not reason or intellect (at least, not in any way that we can understand), though it is another type of reason and intelligence and life. It is not great nor good nor wise nor powerful nor beautiful in the way that we would imagine becasue God is all these things, but in a very different manner.

(taken from Summa of the Christian Life: Selected Texts from the Writings of Venerable Louis of Granada, translated and adapted by Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP, Vol. I, Chap. 3)

Maria

 

[nMbR1BaRlOwGiRl]

I don’t know about all you guys, but it seems a little odd to me that we’re debating this. Nuns have been around for…quite some time now… Does anyone know what the Church says about this? I looked in the Cathechism, but couldn’t find anything. How else can I find out?

all4Him,
~Jaclyn~

 

[Dale_M]

If you saw the Nuns Story film? In the book, there were no wedding gowns, because that Order lived an active apostolate.

But in some orders wedding gowns are still worn when taking perpetual vows.

 

[seremina]

There is a difference between mortal marriage and spiritual marriage. Nuns make a spiritual marriage with Jesus. They wear a modest wedding gown and receive a wedding ring.

Whereas mortal marriage requires procreation and the bed act, spiritual marriage requires intimate prayer. For nuns, this is nonsexual intercourse. If you have trouble understanding this, look up “intercourse” in an older dictionary. You’ll find it means a form of prayer.

The whole Church is the Bride of Christ, in a universal [Catholic] way.

There is no reason to debate this, as there are many layers of beauty we should contemplate on. Not all layers of beauty are of this earth, and we must remember that God’s ways are not our ways. We should respect how God has made things the way they are.

I have a question to ask, myself. I’m having trouble finding any material on it. I heard that priests marry Christ as well, but I thought priests and monks married Mary? I’m not sure where I got this thought from, but I’d appreciate some answers and links. Thank you, and God bless.

 

[hermitcrab]

This is not true.

As Shoshona has said, so much has been lost. Sad that this is so, that this has been reduced to this.

Yes, Nuns have been here centuries… for all, not a spiritual marriage

There is a difference between mortal marriage and spiritual marriage. Nuns make a spiritual marriage with Jesus. They wear a modest wedding gown and receive a wedding ring.

Whereas mortal marriage requires procreation and the bed act, spiritual marriage requires intimate prayer. For nuns, this is nonsexual intercourse. If you have trouble understanding this, look up “intercourse” in an older dictionary. You’ll find it means a form of prayer.

The whole Church is the Bride of Christ, in a universal [Catholic] way.

There is no reason to debate this, as there are many layers of beauty we should contemplate on. Not all layers of beauty are of this earth, and we must remember that God’s ways are not our ways. We should respect how God has made things the way they are.

I have a question to ask, myself. I’m having trouble finding any material on it. I heard that priests marry Christ as well, but I thought priests and monks married Mary? I’m not sure where I got this thought from, but I’d appreciate some answers and links. Thank you, and God bless.

 

[Shoshana]

When I have more time, I will quote from books what spiritual marriage is all about…

 

[hermitcrab]

Ah, no need for books…

Thank you all for bringing me to realise all this more fully… A while ago a dear old Nun, very much a total Bride of Christ, asked where what she called “all the mystical, wystical nuns have gone to…”
I did not fully see what she was saying until now…

Somehow we have lost the deep,deep mysticism that religious life is truly all about. Which is why of course so many Orders are dying; for lack of the deep, deep prayer and relationship with our Bridegroom in every part of us that true Consecration used to mean.

Saint Clare’s writings are full of erotic images.

And what is still here now, except in a very, very few hidden orders,is like comparing decaffeinated instant coffee with a triple shot pure ground roast coffee.

Still in the service of the Church and Jesus always of course. I am not decrying this in any way. Still lives given, but as many orders admit by no longer having that Wedding Rite, not Brides of Christ any more…

When I have more time, I will quote from books what spiritual marriage is all about…

 

[MTD]

I have a question to ask, myself. I’m having trouble finding any material on it. I heard that priests marry Christ as well, but I thought priests and monks married Mary? I’m not sure where I got this thought from, but I’d appreciate some answers and links. Thank you, and God bless.

As members of the Church, the Bride of Christ, priests are also spouses of Christ. However, what you’re asking about is priests being married to the Church. The reason for this analogy is because a priest is alter Christus; as other Christs they are married to the Church because the Church is the spouse of Christ.

When I have more time, I will quote from books what spiritual marriage is all about…

There are lots of spiritual marriages: the marriage of the Church to Christ; the marriage of religious to Christ because of the vows; the marriage of priests to the Church because of their position as alter Christus; and finally (and I think this is what you’re referring to), the highest possible mystical union with Christ this side of heaven called by the saints spiritual marriage. This last is described by St. Teresa of Avila in her Interior Castle.

Maria

 

[seremina]

As members of the Church, the Bride of Christ, priests are also spouses of Christ. However, what you’re asking about is priests being married to the Church. The reason for this analogy is because a priest is alter Christus; as other Christs they are married to the Church because the Church is the spouse of Christ.

There are lots of spiritual marriages: the marriage of the Church to Christ; the marriage of religious to Christ because of the vows; the marriage of priests to the Church because of their position as alter Christus; and finally (and I think this is what you’re referring to), the highest possible mystical union with Christ this side of heaven called by the saints spiritual marriage. This last is described by St. Teresa of Avila in her Interior Castle.

Maria

Maria,

Thank you for the response. It answered all my questions. The spiritual marriage is what I thought was what the wedding-dressed and wedding-ringed nuns had when they took their perpetual vows.

You’re saying spiritual marriage is something even deeper than this? A mystical union with Christ? Could you please explain this more…or would you just recommend I read that book and ask you for clarification when I get confused?

Shoshana, I’m not sure what you’re talking about, but go ahead and quote to your heart’s content. I love reading what people quote. Its difficult having such a limited income; I’d be buying more books if it wasn’t for this.

Hermitcrab, your writing style is very difficult to follow. You seem to write in such a way, I am expected to have some assumed knowledge or actual knowledge, of the pessimism you speak of. Why this pessimism? Why do you seem so sad? I wasn’t aware anything had died nor changed. Please do explain and then maybe we’ll be on the same page and can discuss it.

 

[hermitcrab]

No pessimism; for there are still true Brides of Christ.

But yes, there have been huge changes. The idea of the Brideship of a Nun being simply symbolic or simply spiritual is one such…

Hermitcrab, your writing style is very difficult to follow. You seem to write in such a way, I am expected to have some assumed knowledge or actual knowledge, of the pessimism you speak of. Why this pessimism? Why do you seem so sad? I wasn’t aware anything had died nor changed. Please do explain and then maybe we’ll be on the same page and can discuss it.

 

[hermitcrab]

Please, will you excuse me now?

This has been an enlightening thread, but Prayer calls.

Be blessed in Jesus Christ.

And it is fine to pm me; I will get back as soon as Prayer allows

Always at the Master’s Feet in Prayer.