Do Orthodox accept all Catholic Saints as Saints and vice versa?

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But how does an Orthodox know if a Catholic Saint or a Saint that you usually don’t hear about in Orthodoxy is considered a Saint by the Orthodox?
Western Saints before the Great Schism of 1054 are also Orthodox Saints. If in doubt check an Orthodox Calendar but you’ll need a fullsize one and not just a pocket version or a wall calendar.
Fr. Ambrose, I know you took your name from St. Ambrose of Milan… growing up Serbian Orthodox, I never heard of St. Ambrose…I would immediately assume they were a Catholic Saint…
I was given my name at my tonsuring (postrig) at the monastery of Zica by my spiritual father Archimandrite Dositej.

Serbs are probably familiar with the famous spiritual father known as the Mladi Starac, o. Amvrosije of Milkovo monastery?
 
Their Saints are canonized and glorified by the local bishops, and venerated more locally.
Let’s see.

Yesterday was the Feast of

St. Blane of Bute
St. Attracta of Drum
St. Lelia of Limerick
St. Digna of Northumbria

Today is

St. Fachanan of Rosscarbery
St. Muredach of Killala

Tomorrow is

St. Maccarthen of Clogher

These Saints don’t generally have extravagant celebrations among the Catholics of Japan and Sweden. They were canonised by the local bishops of Ireland and their veneration is localised to a few places in Ireland.

Lives of the Celtic and Old English Saints
groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints
 
Interestingly, even amongst the Orthodox Churches there is disagreement in who is or is not a saint. St. Dioscorus (5th century), St. Severus of Antioch (6th century), to name just two non-Chalcedonian saints, are highly revered by the Oriental Orthodox, but not so by the Eastern Orthodox.
it is just as erroneous to lump the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox into one “Orthodox Church” as it is to lump the Roman Catholics and the Old Catholics together as if they form one “Catholic Church.”
 
The situation is rather complicated with the Roman Catholic Church, since she includes in her communion many Eastern Catholic Churches who bring with them the patrimony of the East, including times when these Eastern Churches were not in communion with Rome. So, the Roman Catholic Church with difficulty allows Eastern Catholics to venerate post-schism figures like St. Photius, St. Gregory Palamas. They also allow the Eastern Catholics to venerate individuals like St. Isaac of Nineveh who are possibly considered theologically suspect by Roman Catholics.
“with difficulty”… has the Roman Catholic Church informed their Eastern Catholic subordinates that they are* allowed this veneration only with difficulty?*
 
These Saints don’t generally have extravagant celebrations among the Catholics of Japan and Sweden. They were canonised by the local bishops of Ireland and their veneration is localised to a few places in Ireland.
True enough, which is why I said the Orthodox shouldn’t be terribly offended if, should we reunite, we consider their Saints locally canonized (even if they happen to be on many or even all Eastern calendars) and not technically universally canonized in the same way we believe papal canonizations work. Which doesnt necessarily have to do with their feast being universal anyway, many Saints canonized by the Pope are only put in the Roman Martyrology, not Eastern Catholic calendars.

Though there is a theory that by letting all these local Saints of the first millenium stay in the Roman Martyrology, the Popes tacitly canonized them all universally. But I dont think necessarily so, nor that every canonization the Pope does today is even like that. In “equivalent ‘cultus confirmed’ canonizations”…the Pope merely approves a pre-existing local cultus, which I do not think is the same as an explicit papal canonization, but more like one of the local canonization as done in the first millenium, except it is simply approved by the Pope and perhaps added to his city’s martyrology…

Because the “infallible canonizations of the Pope proposed to the whole Church as an example in faith and morals of what is necessary to lead a full Christian life”…were not done for the first 1000 years, are not the only way someone could theoretically become venerated liturgically in the local sense (ie, on the individual calendar of a church) and the “cultus confirmed” canonizations are an example of this even today, and the Orthodox don’t have them anyway. All their canonizations are local. I wouldn’t think you really care if your post-1453 Saints canonizations aren’t recognized as being equivalent to that status that the Pope declares, because that already doesn’t exist in your Church.
 
“with difficulty”… has the Roman Catholic Church informed their Eastern Catholic subordinates that they are* allowed this veneration only with difficulty?*
It just means that they are allowed to be venerated locally (that is to say, at the discretion of the bishops of the churches)…but are not papally canonized as a universal and infallible example of how to lead an ordinary Christian life, which includes implicit communion with the Pope.

But it is a recognition of their holiness personally, and they may be venerated locally in this sense in the Eastern Churches, and privately by anyone.
 
:rolleyes:
It just means that they are allowed to be venerated locally (that is to say, at the discretion of the bishops of the churches)…but are not papally canonized as a universal and infallible example of how to lead an ordinary Christian life, which includes implicit communion with the Pope.

But it is a recognition of their holiness personally, and they may be venerated locally in this sense in the Eastern Churches, and privately by anyone.
This makes no sense to me. It smacks of disunity in the Catholic Church.

On Fifth Avenue the Ukrainian Catholics may celebrate a Mass in honour of Saint Photius but the Roman Catholic priest on the same block is forbidden.

What sort of unity is that?! :confused: 😦 :rolleyes:
 
That Saint just simply isn’t on the Roman Calendar (in the case of Photius…for obvious reasons).

If he was added to the Roman calendar by the Pope as Patriarch of the Latin Rite…the Roman priest could.

But while he can be locally venerated, that is to say, on the calendar, of even every single sui juris Church…that still wouldn’t make him universally venerated and papally canonized in the sense of an infallible declaration that he is an example of fullfilling all the normitive requirements of Christian life.

Of course even that could be done for Orthodox Saints before 1453. But I doubt you care if it is, since you have no similar concept.

For you, canonizations are only what they were in the first millenium. Local public veneration on the individual calendars approved by the bishops.

They do not carry the added status of being an extraordinary infallible declaration that the person is a good example of fullfilling all the objective requirements of the Faith. Which is not even the case for every papal canonization…the “cultus confirmed” ones, are mainly just recognition and approval of local veneration.

There are some good points about the way it is done now…but I would loosen it more to make a balance. I would have much more local veneration allowed to be approved by local bishops. The current process is way too Rome-centered. Why should every Saint, before being allowed to be added to Rite-wide calendars…have to also be a basically dogmatic statement? And even the ones added initially just to diocesan calendars…still need the Popes approval of beatification. Way to Rome centralized.

It wasn’t that grave in the first millenium, and should be made less so again. I think John Paul wanted to help go in that direction by canonizing so many…unfortunately, they were all still super-Rome-centralized canonizations except a few “cultus confirmed”…

There should be fewer pope-centralized canonizations (except for Saints who, you know, lived in Rome itself). They should be rarer and extraordinary (as they were from 1100 to 1978)…but there should be many more local canonizations like there were in the first millenium. People added by bishops to local calendars. They’d be merely passively approved by the Pope, without making any sort of extraordinary or universal statement, if they were from that diocese natively, and a bit more actively approved (ie, cultus confirmed) if the Saint was originally a local diocesan one, but was becoming popular and was proposed for public veneration in a different diocese (in which case it would involve the universal authority more actively as it involves more than one diocese). Some the Pope might want to add to the local Roman calendar, even the universal Roman Rite calendar…but this itself should often be just in the local sense as merely latin patriarch more often, except in really exceptional cases.
 
Originally Posted by Fr. Ambrose:

it is just as erroneous to lump the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox into one “Orthodox Church” as it is to lump the Roman Catholics and the Old Catholics together as if they form one “Catholic Church.”
It was not my intention to lump the two Churches into one Church. I was simply pointing out that the Eastern Orthodox Church is not the only “Orthodox Church” in the Christian East–in which several Orthodox Churches are to be found. I was saying that Eastern Christians, because they consist of several, differing Orthodox Churches, disagree on which Eastern “saints” are really saints.
 
It was not my intention to lump the two Churches into one Church. I was simply pointing out that the Eastern Orthodox Church is not the only “Orthodox Church” in the Christian East–in which several Orthodox Churches are to be found. I was saying that Eastern Christians, because they consist of several, differing Orthodox Churches, disagree on which Eastern “saints” are really saints.
The Oriental Orthodox separated from the Catholic Church in the 5th century.

If you say that “Eastern Christians” consist of Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox then it is acceptable to say that “Western Christians” consist of Roman Catholics and Old Catholics and Polish National Catholics. But we can’t. They might all have “Catholic” in their names but they are not one Church.
 
Originally Posted by Fr. Ambrose:

“with difficulty”… has the Roman Catholic Church informed their Eastern Catholic subordinates that they are* allowed this veneration only with difficulty?*
I don’t see what you’re getting at. If you could explain, that would be great.

“with difficulty” refers to the inherent theological difficulty of allowing subordinates to venerate post-schism saints of the East who were not members of a Church in communion with Rome–seen as schismatics or heretics by the West. (St. Gregory Palamas, for example).

Btw, I don’t agree with the Latin treatment of the Eastern Catholic Churches (seen by many Latins as subordinate to the Church of Rome and as an appendage to the Catholic Church).
 
Originally Posted by Fr Ambrose:

The Oriental Orthodox separated from the Catholic Church in the 5th century.

If you say that “Eastern Christians” consist of Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox then it is acceptable to say that “Western Christians” consist of Roman Catholics and Old Catholics and Polish National Catholics. But we can’t. They might all have “Catholic” in their names but they are not one Church.
Yes, I know this. I’m not aware of having anywhere claimed that the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrian Orthodox are all one Church. Where are you getting this idea from my posts?

I grouped the Orthodox Churches together under the term “Eastern Christians,” just as I similarly would group the Western “Churches”: the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Old Catholic Church and the Anglican Church under the term “Western Christians”–even though I certainly would not say that all these Western Churches (churches or ecclesiastical communities, whatever you want to call them) are one Church. I know the Eastern Orthodox themselves speak of the Christian East and the Christian West, and I was making use of this general distinction.

I’m not secretly advocating a kind of branch theory.

Does that make sense? Do you not consider the Oriental Orthodox as Eastern Christians?
 
Western Saints before the Great Schism of 1054 are also Orthodox Saints. If in doubt check an Orthodox Calendar but you’ll need a fullsize one and not just a pocket version or a wall calendar.

I was given my name at my tonsuring (postrig) at the monastery of Zica by my spiritual father Archimandrite Dositej.

Serbs are probably familiar with the famous spiritual father known as the Mladi Starac, o. Amvrosije of Milkovo monastery?
I’m not Serbian but the little book by Archbishop Anthony (of San Francisco) about his spiritual father, Schema-Archimandrite Ambrose of Milkovo, entitled The Young Elder (in English translation) was without doubt one of the most inspiring things I’ve ever read!

(In fact, I cut out and framed the old photo of Blessed Archimandrite Ambrose and it’s had a place of honour in my icon corner for the past 15+ years.)
 
<<St. Augustine is a saint, but not a favorite of many. St. Benedict is in high favor. I haven’t, however, ever heard of any Orthodox, except my priest (a special case) who refers to Jerome as a saint.>>

In my Synekdimos (a liturgical book with a little bit of everything, but not everything of anything) in the Menologion (calendar of Saints), it lists Sts Aubustine and Jerome on 15 June.

St. Jerome is considered a saint, but he doesn’t have the influence in the East that his Vulgate gave him in the West.
 
:rolleyes: This makes no sense to me. It smacks of disunity in the Catholic Church.

On Fifth Avenue the Ukrainian Catholics may celebrate a Mass in honour of Saint Photius but the Roman Catholic priest on the same block is forbidden.

What sort of unity is that?! :confused: 😦 :rolleyes:
Good question. This matter certainly needs to be resolved. I don’t think any Catholic should be venerating the likes of Palamas or Photius.
 
Palamas, understood properly, is fine. Though there are dangerous and sensationalistic heretical misinterpretations. But these are not the fault of the great eastern theologian himself.

Photius…should perhaps be removed from public veneration. But private veneration is always fine.
 
Troparion

Follower of the Apostles’ way
And teacher of mankind:
Intercede, O Photius, with the Lord of all,
To grant peace to the world
And to our souls great mercy!


Kontakion

*Far-reaching beacon of the Church and God,
inspired Guide of the Orthodox,
you are now crowned with the flowers of song.
You are the divine words of the Spirit’s harp,
the strong adversary of heresy and to whom we cry,
“Hail, all-honorable Photius.” *
 
As far as Sts. Cyril and John not liking each other, there is also the story of how Sts. Augustine and Jerome didn’t get along as well.
 
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