Do Orthodox believe Catholic infant baptism by pouring (not immersion) to be valid?

[mdstanzel]

It says absolutely nothing about Christians receiving the Holy Spirit at baptism!

The Gift of the Holy Spirit

        Chrismation is the imparting of           the gift of the Holy Spirit unto the newly-baptized believer. Christians are           “temples of the Holy Spirit”, and this sacrament bestows the Holy           Spirit upon them. The Christian must always remember St. Paul’s           admonition: “know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost           which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”           (1 Cor 6:19).
         
        After a person is baptized and chrismated, all his sins are           remitted, and he is illumined with the grace and power of the Holy Spirit to           enable him to embark upon the life in Christ within the ark of the Holy Church.           This is also the case for infants, who are also empowered to live a Christian           life.  The grace of baptism, especially if it is nurtured by strong faith           and piety in the household, will operate invisibly in such little ones, and           strengthen them so that when they acquire reasoning powers, they will choose           the Christian way of life.
         
        **Baptisms are public events.**

        Baptisms should be public, before the entire local parish,           so that all the Christians can pray for the ones to be illumined, and may           listen again to the vows that are made, remembering their own vows. It is good           for every Christian to examine himself during this time, to see whether he be           “in Christ” or not, that is, whether he has kept the vows of his           baptism.
         
        **I believe in one baptism**

        “I believe in one baptism” is said by every           Christian every day when he recites the Symbol of Faith (the Creed). Since           there is only one church, there is only one baptism. Nothing outside the           church, even if it resembles Christian baptism, is true baptism.  This is           why those desiring to become Orthodox Christians who come from another belief,           even one that has a baptismal rite, should be baptized. Certain innovators have           begun to accept people into Orthodoxy by chrismation only, and espouse an           ecumenical rhetoric which accepts their baptismal rite outside the church as           fully Christian in every way. They have made up a service for this, as there is           no separate service for chrismation - it is part of the baptismal rite. Any           chrismation service written in our modern days and intended for those who           desire to enter Holy Orthodoxy is an innovation, and was unknown by the Holy           Fathers of the Church. 
         
        **Chrismation and special circumstances**

        Chrismation, since it is the imparting of the gift of the           Holy Spirit, may be repeated under extreme conditions. **We believe that the Holy           Spirit flees from an Orthodox Christian when he falls into apostasy, or idol           worship. **When he repents and comes back to the Holy Church, he is often,           according to the discretion of the bishop, accepted back by chrismation, which           again imparts the gift of the Holy Spirit back to him. There is a special           service in our Trebnic (“Book of Needs”, which the priest uses for           special services such as marriage, burial, baptism, various blessings, etc.)           for the chrismation of formerly apostate Orthodox. This service is certainly           not the one used by certain Orthodox when they chrismate people they           incorrectly say “are already baptized”, as it is a very           compunctionate service, and assumes that the person being chrismated is an           apostate Orthodox, desiring to repent and enter back into the life in the           church.

**. **

Which part of this do you not understand?[See bold text in red]

 

[WesleyF]

Which part of this do you not understand?[See bold text in red]

Dude/Sir/Maam , that’s a reference to Chrismation (which Catholics call Confirmation) and not baptism!

 

[WesleyF]

Where are the Orthodox Christians? Why no reply from them?

 

[WesleyF]

Yes. If the person renounces heresy and the devil. There are other instruments of Grace which can make up for any potential deficiency.

Personally, if it was up to me (it’s not ) I would prefer that all converts take the baptism. But the bishops (these things are decided together in synod, then they act in unison) can choose to use another method.

I found this quote -

“Since there is only one church, there is only one baptism.** Nothing outside the church, even if it resembles Christian baptism, is true baptism**. This is why those desiring to become Orthodox Christians who come from another belief, even one that has a baptismal rite, should be baptized. Certain** innovators** have begun to accept people into Orthodoxy by** chrismation only**, and espouse an ecumenical rhetoric which accepts their baptismal rite outside the church as fully Christian in every way. They have made up a service for this, as there is no separate service for chrismation - it is part of the baptismal rite. Any chrismation service written in our modern days and intended for those who desire to enter Holy Orthodoxy is an innovation, and was unknown by the Holy Fathers of the Church.”

orthodox.net/articles/orthodox-baptism-explanation.html

See, this is the doctrinal difference that I am talking about.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Dude/Sir/Maam , that’s a reference to Chrismation (which Catholics call Confirmation) and not baptism!

In Orthodoxy, chrismation and baptism are inseparable. The two acts are not performed separately (unless one is being reconciled into the Church, or the bishop accepts trinitarian baptisms from other churches).

 

[Cavaradossi]

I found this quote -

“Since there is only one church, there is only one baptism.** Nothing outside the church, even if it resembles Christian baptism, is true baptism**. This is why those desiring to become Orthodox Christians who come from another belief, even one that has a baptismal rite, should be baptized. Certain** innovators** have begun to accept people into Orthodoxy by** chrismation only**, and espouse an ecumenical rhetoric which accepts their baptismal rite outside the church as fully Christian in every way. They have made up a service for this, as there is no separate service for chrismation - it is part of the baptismal rite. Any chrismation service written in our modern days and intended for those who desire to enter Holy Orthodoxy is an innovation, and was unknown by the Holy Fathers of the Church.”

orthodox.net/articles/orthodox-baptism-explanation.html

See, this is the doctrinal difference that I am talking about.

Whether converts should or should not be rebaptized is a decision which is up to the local bishop. It will remain this way unless a synod or council makes a standard policy (if having a standard policy is even necessary).

 

[CopticChristian]

Which part of this do you not understand?[See bold text in red]

I am not sure how relevant this is, The Eastern rites, Baptize/Confirm babies. Chrism may suggest the Confirmation at the time of Baptism. Babies take communion.

 

[mdstanzel]

In Orthodoxy, chrismation and baptism are inseparable. The two acts are not performed separately (unless one is being reconciled into the Church, or the bishop accepts trinitarian baptisms from other churches).

I know this to be true. I still believe it prudent that the Catholic Church return to the same tradition. Separating these 3 sacraments seems very odd to me.

This post may have been better posted on the eastern church forum. I’m not sure why the Orthodox haven’t posted on this. Perhaps its because of the Orthodox view of the sacred mysteries. Further, Cavaradossi, made it clear what I should have made even more clear to you. The Orthodox do not separate the first three sacraments. Baptism, Holy Communion and Chrismation are imparted at the same ceremony, and therefore, my post is relevant to answering your question. In order for one to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, one must be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[WesleyF]

Whether converts should or should not be rebaptized is a decision which is up to the local bishop. It will remain this way unless a synod or council makes a standard policy (if having a standard policy is even necessary).

While it may be left to the local bishop, the Russian Orthodox Church calls “not baptizing” and only chrismating an “innovation” and therefore sees it as a heretical practice not in line with Orthodoxy. Therefore there seems to be a disunity among the Orthodox churches about this issue. This isn’t simply a matter of each church making its own decision on the subject, but rather a matter of what has come down from “the Holy Fathers of the Church”.

 

[WesleyF]

In Orthodoxy, chrismation and baptism are inseparable. The two acts are not performed separately (unless one is being reconciled into the Church, or the bishop accepts trinitarian baptisms from other churches).

Yes, I know that, and therefore I asked whether the Orthodox believe that a person receives the Holy Spirit at baptism (alone). I know that it is certainly received in Chrismation.

In another thread, Cider posted

In most of the sacraments the Church takes material things - water, bread, wine, oil- and makes them a vehicle of the Spirit.

So it seems that it is implicitly stated that a person does receive the Holy Spirit at baptism; but I am still waiting for a more explicit statement.

 

[Cavaradossi]

While it may be left to the local bishop, the Russian Orthodox Church calls “not baptizing” and only chrismating an “innovation” and therefore sees it as a heretical practice not in line with Orthodoxy. Therefore there seems to be a disunity among the Orthodox churches about this issue. This isn’t simply a matter of each church making its own decision on the subject, but rather a matter of what has come down from “the Holy Fathers of the Church”.

No, St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church says that. What you linked is the publication of one parish, not the publication stating the opinion of the entire Russian Orthodox Church.

 

[WesleyF]

Cmon folks, answer me with references.

 

[WesleyF]

No, St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church says that. What you linked is the publication of one parish, not the publication stating the opinion of the entire Russian Orthodox Church.

Hmmm. This is still one of the big problems I see in the Orthodox churches - the fact that one local church can differ in its doctrine from another local church.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Hmmm. This is still one of the big problems I see in the Orthodox churches - the fact that one local church can differ in its doctrine from another local church.

Discipline, not doctrine.

 

[louis91766]

The issue of the Orthodox view of the validity of Catholic sacraments was raised on another forum. Two posts were recommended:

groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943
groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

Far from what you get from the rank and file here, which take up the relatively recent innovation of the Greeks when they were angry about the Mlekites opting for communion with Rome…

According to those posts, a cleric in the Russian ORthodox Church says that RC Sacraments are valid. However, other Orthodox say No. In fact there is a video on youtube which says that the Russian Orthodox Church is heretical and apostate since it has endorsed ecumenism with the RC Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=JmFNf6rwAck

 

[Cavaradossi]

According to those posts, a cleric in the Russian ORthodox Church says that RC Sacraments are valid. However, other Orthodox say No. In fact there is a video on youtube which says that the Russian Orthodox Church is heretical and apostate since it has endorsed ecumenism with the RC Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=JmFNf6rwAck

That’s not an Eastern Orthodox group, it’s a schismatic “True Orthodox” group. They’re a lot like sedevacantists. Just as you wouldn’t like people saying that sedevacantists represent mainstream opinions within Catholicism, it would be nice if you payed the Orthodox posters here (all 3 or 4 of us) the same courtesy.

 

[louis91766]

That’s not an Eastern Orthodox group, it’s a schismatic “True Orthodox” group. They’re a lot like sedevacantists. Just as you wouldn’t like people saying that sedevacantists represent mainstream opinions within Catholicism, it would be nice if you payed the Orthodox posters here (all 3 or 4 of us) the same courtesy.

I thought that True Orthodox would mean that they represent the true Orthodox Tradition? Who has ever excommunicated them? Still, I don;t think that all Orthodox agree that RC Sacraments are “with grace”. On the internet boards, many say No. And also, they will say that according to the canons of the Orthodox Church it is a serious sin to pray with a Catholic. This includes even saying a prayer such as the “Our Father” with a Catholic.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I thought that True Orthodox would mean that they represent the true Orthodox Tradition? Who has ever excommunicated them? Still, I don;t think that all Orthodox agree that RC Sacraments are “with grace”. On the internet boards, many say No. And also, they will say that according to the canons of the Orthodox Church it is a serious sin to pray with a Catholic. This includes even saying a prayer such as the “Our Father” with a Catholic.

If I enthrone myself as Pope Phillip, and start a church called the “True Catholic Church” that doesn’t make me or my church representative of real Catholicism. In the same way, breakaway schismatic groups like the “True Orthodox” are not representative of Orthodoxy.

 

[JohnVIII]

What is the case by case basis for baptism by pouring? This is not a matter of discipline where each church can act on its own authority and act on a case by case basis.** It is a matter of doctrine. ** Either baptism by pouring is valid or it is not valid. No case by case basis can be made here.

Are you saying then that each particular orthodox church can decide for itself whether baptism by pouring is valid or not?

To Orthodox “valid” only means that it is done in a correct manner. It does not follow that if it is valid that it must have grace. Orthodox do not believe that grace comes from doing it a certain way, but grace comes from the Church. Therefore, if a baptism is done in a “valid” manner but outside of the Church it is without grace; however the Church can impute grace to it by the reception of the person into the Church. On the other hand, if a baptism is done in an invalid manner, but done within the Church with the permission of the bishop it is believed to be a grace filled baptism.

So the manner of baptism is not a doctrinal issue for the Orthodox, the doctrinal issue is that the grace of the Holy Spirit is only within the Church. Each bishop within the Church has the authority to allow or disallow pouring or any other variation from the norm within his diocese, but he is canonically required to accept the baptism of anyone transferring from another diocese.

Orthodox and Roman Catholics do not think the same way.

 

[JohnVIII]

louis91766;8495086:

According to those posts, a cleric in the Russian ORthodox Church says that RC Sacraments are valid. However, other Orthodox say No. In fact there is a video on youtube which says that the Russian Orthodox Church is heretical and apostate since it has endorsed ecumenism with the RC Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=JmFNf6rwAck

That’s not an Eastern Orthodox group, it’s a schismatic “True Orthodox” group. They’re a lot like sedevacantists. Just as you wouldn’t like people saying that sedevacantists represent mainstream opinions within Catholicism, it would be nice if you payed the Orthodox posters here (all 3 or 4 of us) the same courtesy.

You are right to say that this “True Orthodox” group does not represent the main stream of Orthodoxy and you are right to say that the are “a lot like sedevacantists”, but I will differ from you to go so far as to say that they are “not an Eastern Orthodox group”. They take traditionalism to an extreme, but they hold the same faith as all Orthodox Christian do.