Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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If you are Protestant looking seriously at Orthodox. What is it that draws you to Orthodox and away from Catholicism?
I’m still Protestant, but I’m drawn. Very drawn.

I’m not a Bible scholar or a whiz when it comes to the church fathers, but what I’ve learned so far draws me closer and closer to Orthodoxy. I still have a lot to process, but if I choose to convert it will be because I am convinced that the Orthodox church is the one true Church.

Because, in spite of the fact that technically there are many similarities in doctrine between in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox church, when I go deeper, the differences become much more pronounced.

Papal infallibility is huge. Biblically I do not see the basis for it. I’ve read all the verses, and the various interpretations, and I still don’t accept it. Without that, I can’t accept the Catholic church.

The role of Mary - I can accept many things about Mary (and that includes her perpetual virginity). I never thought I’d say that, but over the las few months, I’ve learned a lot about what the Reformers believed about Mary, and it isn’t what is being taught today. I do not accept that she was born without sin.

That also ties directly into the Orthodox beliefs about Original Sin. Very different, from what I understand, from Catholic beliefs (which, BTW, is much closer to what I was taught to believe as a protestant).

The concept of Sin … and our relationship with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit because of that concept of Sin … and how that relates to Confession (the differences between Confession in the two churches and perhaps the priest-penitent relationship …

This list goes on …
 
Only problem is, These were not “new” teachings, only further defined. 🙂
If this is true, you have no problem. However, an always-believed teaching will be defended from denial at any time in the Church’s history (in fact, continuing opposition to such denials leads to the teaching being dogmatically defined). With the teachings of Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception, we don’t see this opposition to denial. In both cases, the new opinion begins as an extension of a true teaching, is opposed by some and accepted by others and eventually gains prominence and is promulgated as truth and this is when the denials become inadmissible. Once again, this is how heterodoxy spreads and becomes established, not an example of the history of orthodoxy, which doesn’t arise in certain centuries and has to wait until another century until its denials are condemned.
These were also not foreign concepts out of thin air as you like to make them out to be. Your own liturgy proclaims Mary to be spotless doesn’t it? (not sure exact wording)
This seems like a rather loose and easy way to approach Church teaching. 🙂 All kinds of teachings can arise with a claim of being similar to an orthodox teaching. It is not enough that a teaching has a similarity to a true teaching, but that it is actually true, itself, as all heresies have the appearance of truth. And the chief way we discern a true teaching is whether it can be traced back to the apostles (a test the Fathers could only advocate if it were possible to observe the teaching being taught from the beginning). Besides, it is correct that the Most Holy Theotokos is spotless. However, this doesn’t mean that she was free from original sin, as original sin doesn’t entail a stain of guilt in the Orthodox Faith. Since the West developed a more guilt-oriented understanding of original sin, I can see why the teaching of the Immaculate Conception would develop in the West as an attempt to maintain the new understanding of original sin and the oft-repeated affirmations of Mary’s spotlessness and purity. However, that didn’t stop many Western saints and religious, including St. Bernard of Clairvaux and Philip of Harvengt, the Premonstratensian abbot of Bonne Espérence, from censuring the new opinion of Mary’s Immaculate Conception as being wrong since it excluded Mary from the general transmission of original sin (which they, like Orthodoxy, believe passes generally to all men, regardless of whether it is entails guilt or not).
Btw, do you believe God must adhere to some man made time table? Is He uncapable of revealing the fullness of a Truth when He so chooses?
It’s not that God is incapable of this, but that the Fathers and the consciousness of the early Church show that God didn’t intend this. It isn’t difficult to discern why the Lord wouldn’t intend a progression of revelation and acceptance of the apostolic Faith of the Church (as opposed to a better understanding of the constantly-affirmed Faith, which is acceptable), as this would paralyze the response of the Church to heretics, as there would be no clear way of knowing whether these men would be teaching heresy or instruments of developing Church doctrine. In addition, it would make the Church incapable of giving the fullness of apostolic teaching to all people of every age, thus giving Christ’s Great Commission a partial application. Read these words of St. Leo, Pope of Rome in response to the various heresies of his day:

And you must so diligently exhort the laity and clergy and all the brotherhood to advance in the Faith as to show that you teach nothing new but instil into all men’s breasts those things, which the Fathers of revered memory have with harmony of statement taught, and with which in all things our epistle agrees. And this must be shown not only by your words but also by the actually reading aloud of previous statements, that God’s people may know that what the Fathers received from their predecessors and handed on to their descendants, is still instilled into them in the present day” - Letter CXXIX, To Proterius, Bishop of Alexandria.

This quote, which merely reaffirms the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Saints of the ancient and modern Orthodox Church, reveals that God did, indeed, ordain that His Truth would be known and taught by all generations and that the faithful should use the standard of their ancestors’ faith as the basis of their own. This rules out any new beliefs like Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception from developing in the Church, if they cannot be shown to be part of the known and proclaimed Faith of our Fathers.

God bless,

Adam
 
Most of the tension I run into seem to be from Proselytizing Orthodox that share so much in common with with us… I see both of us as Catholic and CERTAIN individuals have a tendency to just ger out right rude. Well, I heard the same is true for the Orthodox, from people visiting Divine Liturgy. Priests yelling at people in line for confession? How bazaar. I heard that this is common overseas. And that in the states it’s not quite as intense. It borders just plain anti-social behavior. Not the qulaities of a Christian as described in the book of James.

And it’s funny how much in denial some of the Orhtodox about certain believes when I’ve heard it straight from Orthodox priests. For example, primacy and infalibility. That topic was redefined to suit their needs according to what I’ve read. Sure these are divisions that would take a miricle to remove, but once that is removed, there really isn’t much in the way. I believe this is an ancient fight that is based on culture more than faith. If you do research on most of the American Orthodox you will discover that many if not most are former fundamentalist Protestants that hang onto anti-Catholic sentements and once they discovered some basic truths about the early Church they just couldn’t admit it was in deed a unified Catholic Church surrounded by heretical movements much like today.

Better post fast, but keep it clean. This is my observation. If you are Protestant looking seriously at Orthodox. What is it that draws you to Orthodox and away from Catholicism?
From This Rock:
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9504fea1.asp

From this board:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=124925
 
One may find examples of those who converted to one Church only of contempt for the other in each Church - this is their own problem.

One may find those who dismiss one or the other out of hand - this is their own problem.

One may find polemists against the other Church, some of whom are quite effective, in each Church - their attitude is their own problem.

Finally, one may find sincere converts to both Churches who converted for sincere reasons and with good hearts. To find the truth, read and speak to these ones.
 
That does appear to be the case. However, many wiser and more intelligent people than myself think otherwise. I’m currently reading through John Henry Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, often thought of as *the *work on the subject of doctrinal development. I’m still in the early stages of the book, and he has not yet addressed specific issues. Interesting book, at any rate. I believe Newman opposed papal infallibility when it was first being proposed, but he did accept the Church’s decision once it was made.
I encourage you to be careful with this work, as I get various reviews of it from Roman Catholics. Some think that Newman only advocated a development in expressing the constantly affirmed Faith of the Church, which is also the position of the Orthodox Church. Others, however, see him as advocating a gradual “unpacking” of the basic beliefs of the apostles, which is contradictory to all mention of Tradition and its interpretation and value in the ancient Church, and is thus opposed to the Orthodox Faith.

God bless,

Adam
 
do keep us updated lambic Pen.
Will do. 🙂
I encourage you to be careful with this work, as I get various reviews of it from Roman Catholics. Some think that Newman only advocated a development in expressing the constantly affirmed Faith of the Church, which is also the position of the Orthodox Church. Others, however, see him as advocating a gradual “unpacking” of the basic beliefs of the apostles, which is contradictory to all mention of Tradition and its interpretation and value in the ancient Church, and is thus opposed to the Orthodox Faith.

God bless,

Adam
I think most Orthodox Christians would find fault with Newman’s work, whereas most Catholics seem to think highly of it. I’ll have to read the whole thing before I make my own judgment. I think the main issue of contention is that the Orthodox aren’t really fond of the whole idea of “doctrinal development.” I think the Orthodox see the Catholic Church as making dogmas out of the opinions of theologians. Of course, the Orthodox appear to be doing the same thing when it comes to the teachings of St. Gregory Palamas. Of course, that is a debate in and of itself.
 
the Orthodox appear to be doing the same thing when it comes to the teachings of St. Gregory Palamas. Of course, that is a debate in and of itself.
Which teachings of St Gregory have the Orthodox made dogmatic?

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
Which teachings of St Gregory have the Orthodox made dogmatic?
I still know very little about Orthodoxy, to be honest. Perhaps “dogmatic” is not the best word. However, based on conversations I have had with Orthodox Christians on another forum, the belief that St. Palamas’s “essence and energies” distinction is *de fide *seems to be quite strong. One Orthodox poster even said that Catholics would have to accept this particular teaching if any reunion was to take place. At any rate, there are probably pages of debate on this subject somewhere on this forum, so I don’t want to hijack the thread.
 
I still know very little about Orthodoxy, to be honest. Perhaps “dogmatic” is not the best word. However, based on conversations I have had with Orthodox Christians on another forum, the belief that St. Palamas’s “essence and energies” distinction is *de fide *seems to be quite strong. One Orthodox poster even said that Catholics would have to accept this particular teaching if any reunion was to take place. At any rate, there are probably pages of debate on this subject somewhere on this forum, so I don’t want to hijack the thread.
It is true, Orthodox ecclesiology doesn’t work very well without it. You have to understand there are lots of things we hold to be true that the Church hasn’t defined dogmatically. The way in which the infinite God interacts with us is a mystery we will never fully comprehend. To attempt to define it too much would be folly I think.

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
Thanks Mark
That article is really not worth the paper it would take to print it out. The facts it contains are readily available elsewhere and the opinion is the authors alone, although he would presumably like to spread it around as damage control. It insinuates…even openly suggests…that the wave of Protestants who have chosen Orthodoxy do so out of prejudice, instead of engaging in the same serious exercises of thought Orthodox put into becoming Latins Catholics or Catholics put into becoming Orthodox.

It is a heart wrenching, gut wrenching process. Believe it or not some people fear for their eternal souls over this kind of decision, it is not typically undertaken in a cavelier manner.

We see Protestants struggling with the decision between Orthodoxy and Latin Catholicism every day here and on other religious discussion boards. For some it takes years as they seriously consider each and every argument, study, reflect and pray. They really deserve more respect than a dismissive and patronizing “they take the easy pilgrimage”.

Clearly a decision for the Papacy is arduous, involving more than a backflip or two. But that is largely because the arguments for the Papacy’s modern form are so thin and watery, pretty much derivative thinking. Even Latin Catholic theologions are sometimes at odds with the claims. It’s no one’s fault that it happens to be a hard case to make, certainly not the enquirers fault.

Perhaps the article was intended more for Catholics as a source of comfort. Catholic apologists need to believe that there is a less than noble reason why their appeals for the Papacy are ultimately rejected as often as not by Protestants seeking Apostolic Christianity. They can dismiss it as “prejudice” and perhaps sleep better at night.

Michael
 
The article does a serious disservice to those who study Catholicism and Orthodoxy and then make a decision for Orthodoxy. It is a difficult decision to make, particularly for someone who is from the West. Plus, having read Fr. Gillquist’s book myself, I can say that he does talk about the issues that separate the Catholic Church from the Orthodox Church, and he does talk about why he believes the Orthodox Church is right. I did not detect any sort of anti-Catholicism or “anything but Rome” mindset.
 
I almost began investigating Eastern Orthodoxy when I had given up spiritually on Protestantism. I did so because my anti-Catholicism that I had carried with me fit very well with it. It was after seeing that there is no central authority and it is not as Catholic as they would like us to believe.

First off, none of the Early Churches were “state-churches” as the Eastern Orthodox churches are in present day. That’s a “development.” They claim to be against developments not within Apostolic Christianity.

Also, I don’t see catholicity in Eastern Orthodoxy, or perhaps we both look at it differently. The Catholic Church is comprised of several Churches that in the post-schism world came back to Rome, and Rome with them. That made me think. But what stops me in my tracks is when they claim to be the Catholic Church. They’re not Catholic in the full-sense of the word.

Because the Holy Catholic Church is comprised of 23 Churches, there is diversity in tradition, custom, liturgy, etc. This is true catholicity. We don’t have simple the Latin-Rite in all the Churches of the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox have the Byzantine-Rite for all of theirs. I’m not trying to bash the Byzantine-Rite at all. I think it’s very beautiful. What bugs me is how Eastern Orthodox will complain about Rome suppressing certain things. When the Eastern Orthodox, in specific, the Greeks, suppressed the Church in Antioch making it just like the Greek Orthodox. I see that sort of thing as hypocritical of the Eastern Orthodox.

God granted me the grace to be able to study, read and learn about the early Church. It was orthodox, but not Eastern. It was Catholic through and through. I’ve never been happier in my 18 years of life than I am as a Catholic.

Sometimes some Orthodox posters have brought me down by saying rude, polemical and hurtful things by telling us that the fruits of the Catholic Church is Protestantism, but the truth of the matter is that, there have always been heresies and people trying to lead others astray.

Al-Masih Qam!

Andrew
i say Amen to you brother. great witness.
 
If you do research on most of the American Orthodox you will discover that many if not most are former fundamentalist Protestants that hang onto anti-Catholic sentements and once they discovered some basic truths about the early Church they just couldn’t admit it was in deed a unified Catholic Church surrounded by heretical movements much like today.
I would say this is highly exagerated…most of the Orthodox in this country are from born into the Church; however, it would be fair to say that perhaps most of the books you can easily find in the English Language are those that are written by American Converts to Orthodoxy since English is their only (in most cases) or primary language.

It is true that Orthodoxy has a large number of entire Protestant Churches converting to Orthodoxy and that we also have a large number of both Catholic and Protestant individuals and families converting to our Church. Not for any reason other than they have looked into it and found it to be the Original Christian Church.

I personally spoke to Alex Jones when he came into the Catholic Bookstore I work for (he and most of his Church converted to the Catholic Church) and I asked him why he chose the Catholic Church over Orthodoxy and he said to me several things - not quote vervedim (not that I can even spell that word:blush: ):
  1. I believe that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the same Church.
  2. At my age, I did not want to go back to Seminary to become a priest which would include learning another language which is what the Orthodox were encouraging me to do since I was bring in my congregation, not just my self and immediate family.
  3. We visited an Orthodox Church and I got to go in the back (behind the Iconostasis) with the priest and my wife sat up front and She Hated It!
I’m not aware (doesn’t mean there aren’t any) of any other pastor in the Protestant world who together with his entire (or most) of his congregation converted to the Catholic Church besides Alex Jones and Alex’ reasons had nothing to do with Theology or Doctrine or Dogma for chosing the Catholic Church over the Orthodox Church; however, there are many Protestant Pastors who have brough their entire Churches into Orthodoxy and have chosen the Orthodox Church over the Catholic Church based on Theology, Doctrine and Dogma as are outlined in books that some of them have written.
 
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