Do Orthodox want Communion with Rome?

[The_Old_Medic]

It is likely that some do, and that others do not. Since none of us are mind readers, we can only go by what they publicly express in their words (either vocally or in their writings).

 

[Ghosty]

Just a point of note: the Western Rite Orthodox did not arise out of the Latin Church, but largely out of High Church Anglicanism and other Protestant groups. The man who spearheaded the movement was a former Catholic priest turned Lutheran, but he was not a Catholic at the time.

I don’t know what the make up of Western Rite Orthodoxy is now, but I would be surprised if it has a significant population that is formerly Latin Catholic.

Peace and God bless!

 

[malphono]

I don’t know what the make up of Western Rite Orthodoxy is now, but I would be surprised if it has a significant population that is formerly Latin Catholic.

Good question. In the days before Summorum Pontificum, though, I do know that at least some of the so-called WRO made direct pitches at Latin Rite people. How much success they had I don’t know.

 

[Rawb]

Well, yes. The Catholic Church admits that uniatism existed, recognized the problem, and has worked to dispel ourselves of it. But is Eastern Orthodoxy willing to recognize the same danger in its own approach to unity (or at least the approach of many)?

What’s the danger? Here I mean of uniatism at all.

Why else would you not use stations of the cross, which are wholly orthodox. You can claim your theology is “not Eastern but Orthodox,” but the reality is that you judge orthodoxy by what is peculiarly Eastern.

You misunderstand me, (which is my fault right now because I consider things like…lol I can’t explain my thoughts. I don’t think things like Stations of the Cross are ‘doctrine’ but a devotion.) The Western Rite Orthodox DO use the Stations of the Cross, but without the Medieval addition of the Stabat Mater hymn.

Do Western Orthodox churches have a celibate priesthood? Do they use filioque in the Creed? Do they use unleavened bread for communion? These were realities in the pre-schism Latin Church when the Church was still united.

Of course they have a celibate priesthood, we do as well, but I doubt they mandate it. However we’re not going to re-introduce those things which led to the schism mardukm, that would be profoundly stupid. They do NOT recite the filioque. No Orthodox does.

Do Western Orthodox churches enjoin hesychasm? Do they use the language and theology of Essence/Energy? Do they hold a so-called “Cyprianic” view of baptisms outside the Church?

I’m honestly not sure about heyschasm. They may, or they may not. As far as I recall Cyprian’s views aren’t held by the Orthodox to the extreme that he takes them, we only agree to an extent. Honestly, however, I don’t know in the Western Rite and I don’t particularly care if they did. The Church is One. Our different ‘expressions’ are reflected in our different devotions and, well, rites, not different theologies, fasting schedules, saints, and, ultimately, faith.

If they are not (obviously ) then they are NOT by any stretch of the imagination pre-Schism Latins

.

Rome doesn’t own the Western Rites.

As I said, I’m not asking about conversion. I’m asking about conditions for reunion.

Ok, the condition for reunion is conversion.

 

[Rawb]

Rawb - Please elaborate on this comment.

Orthopraxis means the ‘right practice’. When we see popes kissing korans, bishops who administer Holy Communion to drag queens, officiating at Masses that completely disregard your own histories and traditions, priests that are using water guns to bless people with Holy Water, who are denying things are sins in Confession, who are promoting church-politic agendas with their vestments (women priest or gay pride things), laity who are vastly in favor of gay marriage and ‘womynpriests’ and are for altering the Faith we HAVE to distance ourselves.

You have to understand, it is not only the hierarchy who are entrusted with protecting Orthodoxy in Orthodoxy. The laity are as well. Approval from the laity is a prerequisite for a Council’s acceptance. As such we guard Orthodox teaching and say strictly, as my priest did when he was instructing me “This is Orthodoxy. This is what it is, and if you don’t care for it, we’re not going to sugar coat it or change for you. Our way or the highway.” (Note he wasn’t talking TO me, he was describing the Orthodox attitude lol)

 

[MrPip]

To answer the original question: No one knows for sure. There are Orthodox who do and Orthodox who don’t. Of those who say they do, often they want it solely on their (Orthodox) terms. Those terms seem to vary with who you talk to. Part of the problem is that there are “Orthodox” who are not in communion with other “Orthodox”, let alone with Rome. Until the Orthodox get that issue resolved and can truly speak with one voice about it, and until the majority of Orthodox want it and are willing to allow for regional or cultural variations of liturgical practice that do not violate mutually agreed-upon norms, well…don’t hold your breath. Not everyone, for example, should be expected to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Nor should everyone be expected to celebrate the N.O. Mass.

There are, by the way, many Orthodox and Catholics, both in parts of the U.S. and in parts of Europe, who regularly commune in both churches. I know some of these folks myself. And it’s never a problem-either with them, their families and friends, or the priests who accept it. Interesting. The Church is, after all, ONE. Let us all make it so.

In Christ,
Jeff

 

[Celticnovice]

Orthopraxis means the ‘right practice’. When we see popes kissing korans, bishops who administer Holy Communion to drag queens, officiating at Masses that completely disregard your own histories and traditions, priests that are using water guns to bless people with Holy Water, who are denying things are sins in Confession, who are promoting church-politic agendas with their vestments (women priest or gay pride things), laity who are vastly in favor of gay marriage and ‘womynpriests’ and are for altering the Faith we HAVE to distance ourselves.

You have to understand, it is not only the hierarchy who are entrusted with protecting Orthodoxy in Orthodoxy. The laity are as well. Approval from the laity is a prerequisite for a Council’s acceptance. As such we guard Orthodox teaching and say strictly, as my priest did when he was instructing me “This is Orthodoxy. This is what it is, and if you don’t care for it, we’re not going to sugar coat it or change for you. Our way or the highway.” (Note he wasn’t talking TO me, he was describing the Orthodox attitude lol)

I agree with your point that both hierarchy and laity are entrusted with protecting the faith.

Now, can you honestly say what you have posted is reflective of a Roman Catholic experience held by the majority?

 

[Rawb]

I agree with your point that both hierarchy and laity are entrusted with protecting the faith.

Now, can you honestly say what you have posted is reflective of a Roman Catholic experience held by the majority?

Do you mean can I honestly say that the majority of Roman Catholics experience Drag Queen communions and Gay Pride rallies in the parish basement?

If that’s what you mean I’ll be the first to say of course not. However you only have the one pope, so his actions are the collective experience of your entire church.

Here’s my perception of the average Catholic parish, not to attempt to slander your church just so you know what my perception, from my experience. Guitar music, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (an abnormally large group of whom are women gathered around the altar). A very clean and orderly…feeling? I don’t know how to describe that part. Everything has its place. Very white walls, pews, abstract stained glass (if the glass is stained at all) very plain and (IMO) bland vestments. Everything has a very “70’s” type feel. Clapping during songs or after Mass for the choir. A greater acknowledgement (dare I say respect?) for Christ in the Tabernacle than I find in Orthodox parishes, but less respect during actually receiving Communion. If I went to coffee hour people would be polite, but if I asked everyone at the parish (say there are 50 people there, and not saying I’m going up to strangers at Coffee Hour and springing the question on them) 25-30 would avoid or be vague about their opinion on abortion, 40 wouldn’t have fasted before receiving Communion, it’s been more than a month since 38 went to Confession (and they don’t believe they need to), 30 would believe the “Church had no place in their bedroom” and 40 would believe that we “shouldn’t push our beliefs on others”.

So no, I’m not saying every Catholic is a raging liberal, but if you asked me if I believed that most Catholics are practicing their Catholic faith outside their parish on Sunday I would have to say, were I to be honest, that no, in my experience that is not the case. Those of you here at CAF are the strong few swimming against the tide.

 

[Aramis]

The topic of the thread is not “Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying”. It is “Do the Orthodox want communion with Rome”. ]

Many of the Orthodox claims of what the Catholic Church united with Rome teaches amount to slander… not true, and told primarily to damage the credibility of another.

It would be like some protestants claiming the Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary. Just because they believe it true based upon praxis elements doesn’t make it any the less a bold and slanderous lie. We do not give Latria to anyone but the Trinity.

 

[milidrag]

dzheremi:

The topic of the thread is not “Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying”. It is “Do the Orthodox want communion with Rome”.

Many of the Orthodox claims of what the Catholic Church united with Rome teaches amount to slander…

Dzheremi’s observation is quite true, since mardukm’s hook was directed towards my reference to Filioque as the main obstacle.

Romans tried to prove Filioque to Orthoox twice - in Lyons and Ferrara-Florence, we have rejected it and that’s it.

It’s a feible tactics to try every single sophistry to persuade every signel Orthodox in an obvious impossibility.

 

[lax16]

Orthopraxis means the ‘right practice’. When we see popes kissing korans, bishops who administer Holy Communion to drag queens, officiating at Masses that completely disregard your own histories and traditions, priests that are using water guns to bless people with Holy Water, who are denying things are sins in Confession, who are promoting church-politic agendas with their vestments (women priest or gay pride things), laity who are vastly in favor of gay marriage and ‘womynpriests’ and are for altering the Faith we HAVE to distance ourselves.

Rawb - Thank you very much for your honest answer! I have had questions about the loose cannons in the CC for a little while now and have been recently wondering how the EO handle such things. (Really, we are the only two legit religions that I care to contemplate and discuss!)

There is a very slow reaction time in the CC and it seems, as in institution, the CC continues to “turn the other cheek” and not address these issues head on in a timely manner.

How do the EO handle such things? I am sure there have been groups wanting to receive communion or wanting certain rights within your church as well. How is it dealt with?

You have to understand, it is not only the hierarchy who are entrusted with protecting Orthodoxy in Orthodoxy. The laity are as well. Approval from the laity is a prerequisite for a Council’s acceptance. As such we guard Orthodox teaching and say strictly, as my priest did when he was instructing me “This is Orthodoxy. This is what it is, and if you don’t care for it, we’re not going to sugar coat it or change for you. Our way or the highway.” (Note he wasn’t talking TO me, he was describing the Orthodox attitude lol)

Yes, I do understand. However, Catholics have always had a sit-back-and-let-the-priest-handle-it attitude. This simply is not possible - there are waaaay too many people doing waaaay to many things and not enough priests to keep track of it all. Not to mention, some priests with a hands-off attitude about these issues.

I have been around orthodox Catholic priests who have no problem standing up for what is right, as well.

I believe a big part of the problem is that the Catholic Church has always put itself “out there” so to speak, in the operation of orphanages, colleges, hospitals, parochial schools etc. and opened the doors to all. As a result, we do not always have a very clear picture of who is doing the abuses.

For example, our two local Catholic high schools here in the Salt Lake Valley have a large number of non-Catholics, and non-practicing Catholics, in with the Catholic population. I hear complaints from non-Catholics about the immodest dress on the girls from one of the high schools, for example, and honestly I cannot say that these are Catholics that are dressing in a way that does not properly represent the Catholic Church.

Also, we are all such a mixed bag of cultures inter-marrying with other religions etc that our teachings can often get watered down in an effort, I believe, to accomodate the many diverse families in our Catholic schools and parishes.

Anyway, the real question is, does that make the Catholic Church wrong? Or is this the natural by-product of being universal, slow to anger, and inclusive?

I definitely feel like I am often swimming upstream and ask myself if this is what Jesus expects of us - to be (almost) alone in our efforts and not to expect to be comforted in this life? This is what I am currently trying to figure out.

Either way, it also comes down to studying the Early Church Fathers/History, scripture, and early traditions to see what it is our Lord has commanded us to do. That is what I am in the middle of studying.

Thank you.

 

[Seamus_L]

Rawb is making excellent points regarding how those outside the Catholic Church see us. I keep hearing how we’re really all Catholics and attending one church is the same as another “It’s all Catholic”. Yet no one want’s to address the reasons why statistics have proven that when you have a higher pct of Catholics in a particular area (in the USA at least), you have laws that tend to be more supportive of abortion and homosexuality. Right there this indicates we have very serious problems, and for that reason many Orthodox want no part of us, and frankly I don’t blame them.

 

[lax16]

Rawb is making excellent points regarding how those outside the Catholic Church see us. I keep hearing how we’re really all Catholics and attending one church is the same as another “It’s all Catholic”. Yet no one want’s to address the reasons why statistics have proven that when you have a higher pct of Catholics in a particular area (in the USA at least), you have laws that tend to be more supportive of abortion and homosexuality. Right there this indicates we have very serious problems, and for that reason many Orthodox want no part of us, and frankly I don’t blame them.

How can the Catholic Church force non-practicing Catholics to conform? Obviously, people who call themselves Catholic but are supportive of abortion and homosexuality, as you mentioned, are not practicing their faith.

I know I am growing weary of trying to convince the Catholics around me about Catholic teaching on these matters, and others as well. What I want to say is “Quit playing dumb on these issues! Look up the Catechism on your search engine and get informed and start playing by the rules!” But, of course, I (we) can’t do that, can we?

Do the EO do a better job at putting the kabosh on non-practicing members - and if so, how do they do it? How do they keep a handle on it?

 

[Aramis]

Dzheremi’s observation is quite true, since mardukm’s hook was directed towards my reference to Filioque as the main obstacle.

Romans tried to prove Filioque to Orthoox twice - in Lyons and Ferrara-Florence, we have rejected it and that’s it.

It’s a feible tactics to try every single sophistry to persuade every signel Orthodox in an obvious impossibility.

If you are truly that blind, then you are most likely lost already. You reject truth, in this case, that latin is incapable of expressing the trinitarian theology in the same way as greek.

Latin procedit ≠ greek ekporousis. KNOWN TRUTH.
ekporousis indicates origination relationship. KNOWN TRUTH.
Procedit can be used for transmission, emission, conduction, or origination… but doesn’t specify which. IT NEVER specifies which; to indicate flowing forth from origin, like in english, the latin requires a constructed phrase to equal the greek ekporousis.

The filioque (or the original Mozarabic “et filios”) speaks of transmission, for the Spirit does not originate in Christ, but does flow through him.

The Latin Credo is, quite simply put, not the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed simply by virtue of inaccurate translation in the 5th century. The Roman Church teaches the same truths, but the credo has issues.

When translated to english, again, proceeds is of the latin root procedit, not the greek ekporousis.

Greek makes many distinctions which get lost when translated to Latin, Spanish, French, Italian, and English.

The Orthodox, however, do not translate the Creed into “Who originates in and flows forth from the Father”
By not so doing, they, like the Latin fathers who translated it from greek to Latin that the people might be edified by it, chose the simpler but less accurate translation, and have FUNDAMENTALLY altered the creed in their use of the accepted English form of the creed.

 

[MrPip]

Rawb is making excellent points regarding how those outside the Catholic Church see us. I keep hearing how we’re really all Catholics and attending one church is the same as another “It’s all Catholic”. Yet no one want’s to address the reasons why statistics have proven that when you have a higher pct of Catholics in a particular area (in the USA at least), you have laws that tend to be more supportive of abortion and homosexuality. Right there this indicates we have very serious problems, and for that reason many Orthodox want no part of us, and frankly I don’t blame them.

There is certainly no doubt that there are problems, and serious problems, in the Church that definitely need to be addressed and rectified.

However…re: the part above in bold and italics–unless you can prove cause and effect here, let’s not confuse correlation with causation. We get on a really slippery slope when we start doing that without proof. And by proof, I don’t mean just statistics, which can be manipulated and skewed to “prove” what you like.

In Christ,
Jeff

 

[milidrag]

Blah,blah…

I haven’t asked you to teach me, or to explain anything to me. God forbid!

I’ve answered a simple question about how do we feel about you. You obviously don’t like the answer, but that’s not my business.

BTW, I really don’t care if you think I’m blind & lost & whatever.

 

[Rawb]

How do the EO handle such things? I am sure there have been groups wanting to receive communion or wanting certain rights within your church as well. How is it dealt with?

Well, part of it is that our priests know us. Our parishes are purposefully kept small, and your priests calls you by name for all the Sacraments, when you receive Communion, absolution, etc. If someone unknown approaches the priest will refuse them Communion or ask who their bishop is. If he doesn’t know their bishop he’ll refuse them. It’s general practice, if you’re going to be visiting a parish where the priest doesn’t know you, to email or call ahead and let him know.

Then our bishops have more authority in general, and they often start out as monks. Our monks live very strict lives, and NONE of them work in hospitals, orphanages, or schools. Their entire life is devoted to fasting and prayer. I think that the hardness of such a life naturally draws a certain type of person who is going to be more conservative and adherence to the truth of Orthodoxy is stressed. I found a website, once, that was a group of Orthodox women who may have been in favor of women’s ordination (they never said as much, but hinted at maybe being in favor of re-instituting Deaconesses) but I mean, everyone knows Orthodoxy doesn’t change, so most people I think look at is pointless to try and just leave if they don’t believe it.

Of course, the fact that we’re so small here in America must not be overlooked.

 

[lax16]

Well, part of it is that our priests know us. Our parishes are purposefully kept small, and your priests calls you by name for all the Sacraments, when you receive Communion, absolution, etc. If someone unknown approaches the priest will refuse them Communion or ask who their bishop is. If he doesn’t know their bishop he’ll refuse them. It’s general practice, if you’re going to be visiting a parish where the priest doesn’t know you, to email or call ahead and let him know.

What is a typical parish size?
Also, are there more EO priests to handle more parishes?

Then our bishops have more authority in general, and they often start out as monks. Our monks live very strict lives, and NONE of them work in hospitals, orphanages, or schools. Their entire life is devoted to fasting and prayer. I think that the hardness of such a life naturally draws a certain type of person who is going to be more conservative and adherence to the truth of Orthodoxy is stressed. I found a website, once, that was a group of Orthodox women who may have been in favor of women’s ordination (they never said as much, but hinted at maybe being in favor of re-instituting Deaconesses) but I mean, everyone knows Orthodoxy doesn’t change, so most people I think look at is pointless to try and just leave if they don’t believe it.

Are your bishops married? Catholic bishops do not work in hospitals or orphanages - did you think that they do?
Are the monks allowed to marry and how long do they live the monastic life before becoming a bishop?

Of course, the fact that we’re so small here in America must not be overlooked.

Approx. how many EO live in the U.S.?

 

[MrPip]

I haven’t asked you to teach me, or to explain anything to me. God forbid!

I’ve answered a simple question about how do we feel about you. You obviously don’t like the answer, but that’s not my business.

BTW, I really don’t care if you think I’m blind & lost & whatever.

Wow! I think Aramis was just trying to help by way of explanation. Don’t be so touchy !

In Christ,
Jeff

 

[Rawb]

What is a typical parish size?
Also, are there more EO priests to handle more parishes?

I’m honestly not sure the average size. I know the Greeks generally have larger parishes. If a parish gets “too big” (probably “too big” is at the discretion of the bishop) they split the parish and start another one. Only one Liturgy is allowed per parish per Sunday, so everyone has to come to the same place at the same time.

I know on the West Coast the OCA is “suffering” from a surplus of priests, but besides that I do not know.

Are your bishops married? Catholic bishops do not work in hospitals or orphanages - did you think that they do?

No I didn’t think your bishops did, I just knew some of your monks did so I wanted to make sure you knew ours didn’t do that. Whereas some of your monks are devoutly religious (excuse the not-correct terminology but it comes close to what I mean) social workers, none of ours are. All of ours are ‘contemplatives’. Contemplatives are a very different calling than ‘actives’. Imagine if all your bishops had first been Contemplative Benedictines and you’ll come close to our hierarchy. See what I mean?

Are the monks allowed to marry and how long do they live the monastic life before becoming a bishop?

No, our bishops aren’t married. That’s technically a discipline, something we formed later (largely like your own celibacy rules)

Approx. how many EO live in the U.S.?

Here’s an answer from Ft. John Matusiak He says a good estimate is between 2 and 3 Million in North America.