Do other Christian denominations accept homosexuality for their own convenience?

[Peter_J]

… from other LGBT individuals.

Touche.

There is no “LGBT community” in terms of the churchlike kind of a community. LGBT equivalent of the Pope and ex cathedra does not exist. “LGBT community” is no other than a collective body of people of different faiths or lack thereof, who experience attraction to people of their own sex, regardless of whether or not such attraction is acted upon. One LGBT person’s opinion thus weighs as much as another one’s, and nobody speaks on behalf of the “community”, but for themselves alone.

Yes, I’ve been told by some LGBT individuals that, as a celibate LGBT person, I am “a traitor”. I’ve also been told by some Catholic individuals, that even as a celibate LGBT person, I should be kept out of the Church and denied Sacraments, that they vomit at the very thought of sharing a pew with me and that feelings that I didn’t invite, that I conceal and battle with, make me as good as a leper anyway. Three guesses as to which caused me greater emotional and spiritual pain.

Important note: I’m not American. Where I am, same-sex unions in any form are not recognized by the government. Conversely, violence against LGBT individuals (sexually active or not) is highly common.

Good posts.

This year I’ve been realizing the extent to which people, myself included, have tended to view issues in a manner that’s akin to the “two party system”. But of course the reality is more complicated – e.g., not all conservatives want to outlaw homosexual acts, and (hopefully) not all liberals approve of the SCOTUS decision that all 50 states must have “gay marriage”.

P.S. FWIW, I imagine that I could vomit at the thought of sharing a pew with the person who said that to you.

 

[Tagetes]

And why do folk flaunt their sexuality? We never did.

People I’ve told < People who know.
No idea whatsoever how they find out.
Is “flaunt their sexuality” a fancy synonym for “exist”?

P.S. FWIW, I imagine that I could vomit at the thought of sharing a pew with the person who said that to you.

Person? As in singular? I wish.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, I’ve been told by some LGBT individuals that, as a celibate LGBT person, I am “a traitor”.

I’ve also been told by some Catholic individuals, that even as a celibate LGBT person, I should be kept out of the Church and denied Sacraments

On a side note, another thing that’s troubling about such incidents (beyond, obviously, the fact that they happen at all) is when other liberals, or other conservatives, criticism them but only in the form of “Well, that’s *too *liberal” or “Well, that’s *too *conservative” – as if it’s just like too-much-of-a-good-thing.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Catholics, and some others, believe there are some things that are unclear or uncertain, but certain other things are absolutely true or false regardless of what I think about them. My faith or reasoning process do not make them truer; though faith, and reason, complement each other and clarify things for me personally, they don’t make the absolute truths.

I think it is necessary to emphasize that nowadays, because there many religious writers and teachers seem to preach “faith in faith”. There is almost an assumption whatever conclusions I reach “by faith” are better, more genuine than slavishly following dogmas. (If you call a man “dogmatic”, nowadays he will think you are insulting him and deny this).

I do not minimize the importance of faith, just pointing out that this word has been altered recently. For many it no longer involves a protection against society’s pressure, but facilitation of it.

I can agree that Catholics and some others believe certain things are absolutely true. But it still takes a degree of faith to get there. Atheists don’t have faith that there is a God. Jews don’t have faith in the NT story. Others don’t have faith in ECFs or the Catholic Church’s interpretations.

 

[Rosebud77]

Dude! Watch your language! :bigyikes:

Believe me my friend, I do not have adequate vocabulary for those who contaminate Holy Word with sexuality issues like that. … I had steam coming out of my ears on that,

 

[commenter]

I can agree that Catholics and some others believe certain things are absolutely true. But it still takes a degree of faith to get there. Atheists don’t have faith that there is a God. Jews don’t have faith in the NT story. Others don’t have faith in ECFs or the Catholic Church’s interpretations.

A century ago Christians who said they did not believe in any ECF’s, tradition, or magisterium, along with most Jews and (probably most) atheists, implicitly believed in the Natural Law for instance. People who were obviously highly committed to Reason, with or without much Faith, believed in some absolutes.

If absolutes are less popular today outside the Catholic Church, it is because people in the West have not only moved away from Faith, but away from Reason, too.

 

[Tagetes]

not all conservatives want to outlaw homosexual acts, and (hopefully) not all liberals approve of the SCOTUS decision that all 50 states must have “gay marriage”

I’m under the impression that you’re under the impression that we stand in the same place. We don’t, and please, don’t make it appear to others as if we do. At my end on the priority spectrum it’s “hopefully, not all conservatives want and are going to shoot/beat an LGBT person to death”. While I chose to draw strict boundaries for myself, I don’t expect non-Catholics to follow suit. And unless clergy is persecuted for not performing religious ceremonies, I honestly couldn’t care less about what licenses the state issues.

For dogmatic reasons I’m not going to ever convert into a “convenient” denomination. But those who do, I can see where they’re coming from. Perhaps, to fathom that one needs to be constantly told that God doesn’t love him or her and there’s only Hell ahead. Be grateful that you weren’t. There’s no joy or hope in my spiritual life. I know nothing about what it feels like to live a life as God’s beloved child, and not as dispensable sawdust that He has already written off due to something innate and incontrollable.

But I’m very well aware that I’m wasting my words, and heterosexual conservatives will continue to pretend that ostracizing us from the Church is something occasional rather than systematic.

 

[Peter_J]

No question, Tagetes, it’s very sad. I really wish that conservative Catholics in my own USA would make just a little more of an effort to speak out against the mistreatment of homosexuals in other parts of the world – especially by other conservative Catholics. (While I’m on the topic, it’s also pretty revolting the way a lot of liberals in the USA will look the other way wrt the extreme mistreatment of homosexuals, and others, in the Middle East.)

 

[Tagetes]

I really wish that conservative Catholics in my own USA would make just a little more of an effort to speak out against the mistreatment of homosexuals in other parts of the world – especially by other conservative Catholics.

The Orlando shooting happened in “your own USA”. There isn’t a part of the world, where a heterosexual and a non-heterosexual have same chances of seeing their next sunrise. And that’s in addition to being bullied, fired, disowned by familes, walked out on by friends etc. The SCOTUS decision did not eliminate these issues, and I have enough acquaintances in America, celibate or otherwise, to testify for this.

But I get it, “evil liberals” are the worst guys here, and those Protestant denominations, who tell a kid who would be otherwise bullied to suicide: “hey, you know what, there’s a hope that God doesn’t hate you and will eventually have mercy on you” are such a horrible treat to religious freedom. Another thing I will never understand, coming from a place where being a Catholic is uncommon and often frowned upon. And no, not because of liberal Protestants.

 

[goout]

I’m under the impression that you’re under the impression that we stand in the same place. We don’t, and please, don’t make it appear to others as if we do. At my end on the priority spectrum it’s “hopefully, not all conservatives want and are going to shoot/beat an LGBT person to death”. While I chose to draw strict boundaries for myself, I don’t expect non-Catholics to follow suit. And unless clergy is persecuted for not performing religious ceremonies, I honestly couldn’t care less about what licenses the state issues.

For dogmatic reasons I’m not going to ever convert into a “convenient” denomination. But those who do, I can see where they’re coming from. Perhaps, to fathom that one needs to be constantly told that God doesn’t love him or her and there’s only Hell ahead. Be grateful that you weren’t. There’s no joy or hope in my spiritual life. I know nothing about what it feels like to live a life as God’s beloved child, and not as dispensable sawdust that He has already written off due to something innate and incontrollable.

But I’m very well aware that I’m wasting my words, and heterosexual conservatives will continue to pretend that ostracizing us from the Church is something occasional rather than systematic.

You are making prejudicial comments about “conservatives”. Even the label “conservative” does no one any favors, especially when it comes to the Catholic Church, which is neither liberal or conservative.

In Christ there is no east or west…

It does no one any favors to broadbrush “conservatives” as hateful to gays any more than it does to broadbrush all “liberals” as babykillers.
Same thing exactly. Prejudice is prejudice.

 

[Tagetes]

You are making prejudicial comments about “conservatives”. Even the label “conservative” does no one any favors, especially when it comes to the Catholic Church, which is neither liberal or conservative.

What exactly “comes to the Catholic Church”? We were talking about political alignment, not religious. Not to mention that the conservative/liberal dichotomy is borrowed from Peter J’s comment that I, a centrist, was quoting.

It does no one any favors to broadbrush “conservatives” as hateful to gays any more than it does to broadbrush all “liberals” as babykillers.
Same thing exactly. Prejudice is prejudice.

Sure as fate, prejudice is prejudice. But here’s a nuance: prejudice against LGBT people cost LGBT people jobs, families, friends, health and lives. Prejudice against unbiased “conservatives” costs unbiased “conservatives” mild psychological discomfort.

 

[Sy_Noe]

A century ago Christians who said they did not believe in any ECF’s, tradition, or magisterium, along with most Jews and (probably most) atheists, implicitly believed in the Natural Law for instance. People who were obviously highly committed to Reason, with or without much Faith, believed in some absolutes.

If absolutes are less popular today outside the Catholic Church, it is because people in the West have not only moved away from Faith, but away from Reason, too.

Either that or along their lifelong journeys as human beings with finite minds, their reasoning has nevertheless grown and evolved over the course of a century to bring them to newer understandings of an infinite God. Or in the case of nonbelievers, to bring them to newer understandings of humanity and the universe. In the case of believers, it may include prayer and discernment as well along with reason. But in faith, we may simply have to agree to disagree on this one. Brightest blessings!

 

[jlhargus]

Nope, not a sin if engaged in the proper context, for example a SS marriage. And SS Marriage is seen as just as valid as a heterosexual marriage. And the argument about the bible would be that the bible doesn’t refer to committed homosexual relationships as abominations.

The bible doesn’t refer to committed homosexual relationships because it is self evident that such sexual relationships are unnatural acts contrary to the natural law.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

My friend I am not doubting you but my point remains,

Most of us treat each other kindly whatever the situation

I have been assaulted and within recent years for standing up to bullies, and for being a Christian. Literally … and I am old and disabled,

Some folk do bad things,

Get over it

And why do folk flaunt their sexuality? We never did.

What do you mean by flaunting one’s sexuality? And who is “we”?

 

[Thorolfr]

What do you mean by flaunting one’s sexuality? And who is “we”?

For a gay person to even mention in casual conversation that they have a same-sex partner is probably considered by some people to be “flaunting”.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

For a gay person to even mention in casual conversation that they have a same-sex partner is probably considered by some people to be “flaunting”.

I know. I just wanted Rosebud to see that.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I think the early assumption in this thread that faiths that accept SS marriage are more accepting and better at opening their doors to people is wrong. The smugness in these statements is disturbing. Finding a supposed loophole in order to avoid an uncomfortable talk is not the best way to help human beings be the best Christians they can be. People need the uncomfortable Truths in order to have the closest relationship possible with our Creator. Lying to them, or sliding through the rules through creative translations, is not the Truth. This is just my opinion, of course, but please rethink where you are leading people and the fact that the leaders who mislead or far more culpable than the people they lead (thank goodness). Nevertheless, souls are at stake here (the souls of the leaders).

Parents of teens know how tempting it is to find loopholes around the rules they make for their teens (think concerts, driving, parties). We think we did it right when we see the joy our of teen’s face, but the compromise of safety or dangerous situation we have allowed them to put themselves in is not worth it in the end. Better to be unpopular and have a teen that makes it to adulthood.

The Catholic Church is open to everyone, too. I would share my pew with anyone. All who come receive grace just by participating in the Mass. (There are no spectators during Mass. If you are present; you are part of it).

Straight, gay, married, divorced, man woman, etc… Are all welcome to take the Eucharist? That depends on them. If they wish to speak to the priest in private or attend confession, yes, it is, indeed, open to all. But, of course, one must believe in God’s Law, as a Catholic, to make a proper confession. There are many who are gay or divorced that receive. They make personal sacrifices in order to do so. We admire their courage and convictions. Not all who are divorced are sleeping around and not all who are gay are actively in relationships.

It’s funny. You always hear about those complaining about not being able to take the Eucharist, but those same people never complain about not being able to go to confession. Every Catholic is eligible for confession, regardless of their path in life. All of us have to go to confession before receiving God’s Body and Blood.

 

[Peter_J]

Finding a supposed loophole in order to avoid an uncomfortable talk is not the best way to help human beings be the best Christians they can be. People need the uncomfortable Truths in order to have the closest relationship possible with our Creator. Lying to them, or sliding through the rules through creative translations, is not the Truth.

Indeed. It has (or had anyhow) become a well-established convention that a denomination could stay on the “right side”, even if it accepted contraception, divorce/remarriage, and premarital sex, just so long as it took a conservative stance on homosexuality.

Hopefully some of those denominations are rethinking this now and embracing a truly conservative position … but I fear more are going in the other direction, becoming consistent in the wrong way, i.e. making their stance on homosexuality just as liberal as their stances on contraception, divorce/remarriage, and premarital sex.

 

[Peter_J]

For a gay person to even mention in casual conversation that they have a same-sex partner is probably considered by some people to be “flaunting”.

Well sure … by some people. But reasonably I think much of a “gay pride parade” could be considered flaunting.

Rosebud77;14243928:

And why do folk flaunt their sexuality? We never did.

And who is “we”?

I’m with BR in terms of not knowing who “we” refers to. I’ve witnessed heterosexual persons doing that – though certainly not *every *heterosexual person does it.

 

[jlhargus]

There’s some question however as to whether the bible is speaking specifically of what we consider homosexual acts today.

Can you name any Christian Tradition or Denomination before 1960 who questioned the bible is not speaking specifically of what we consider homosexual acts today? Not even your own tradition questioned the bible’s clear teaching on homosexual acts.

There are 46 English Bible translations by different denominations, literal and liberal, from the 1600 hundreds till today on Bible Gateway. They all agree they may use different terminology but they never contradict.

[1Cor6:9 **Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.]

legacy.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Corinthians%206:9 View 46 Different English Bible translations of 1Cor6:9

[1Tm1:9 **Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;]

legacy.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Timothy%201:10 View 46 different English Bible translations of 1Tm1:10.

[Rms1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: **for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.]

legacy.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%201:26 View 46 Different English Bible translations of Rms1:26.

legacy.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%201:27 View 46 different English Bible translations of Rms1:27.