Do other Christian denominations accept homosexuality for their own convenience?

[Peter_J]

Are you for real?

P.S. Seriously, I’d like to know what’s up with the hostility toward me.

 

[Tagetes]

Are you for real?

If you have something to say to me, say it. I’m not going to apologize for saying that anti-bullying ads are a good idea.

Yes, I am for real. For the second time within one forum page you projected and attributed your own words to another person and “agreed” with them, i.e. with yourself. Having ignored and invalidated the hard-won point the person was actually trying to make. My non-rhetorical question stands: why do you have to do that?

On an almost unrelated note. Nobody expected an apology from you nor even accused you. But if you will, “anti-bullying ads is a good idea” is very cheap coming from someone, who doesn’t call bullies out on their “cute kitten” remarks. Not to mention that “anti-bullying ads is a good idea” is nowhere near synonymous with “bullying is unacceptable”.

 

[Peter_J]

But if you will, “anti-bullying ads is a good idea” is very cheap coming from someone, who doesn’t call bullies out on their “cute kitten” remarks.

I don’t know what you mean by “cute kitten” remarks, but there are literally millions of posted comments that I do not approve of. I absolutely refuse to enslave myself to them (and I have tried to help others to see that they don’t need to be enslaved to them either).

 

[Tagetes]

By the way, by the approximate age of 11 I also was already bullied by my peers. Back then I needed someone to console me, when I was called names and thrown chewed paper at, to cut the intentionally placed gum from my hair, to replace my textbooks, which my “innocent” classmates, who grew up to be straight women, took away from me and drew penises all over the margins. I didn’t need anyone to tell me that anti-bullying ads were a good thing. It never made any difference.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, I am for real. For the second time within one forum page you projected and attributed your own words to another person and “agreed” with them, i.e. with yourself. Having ignored and invalidated the hard-won point the person was actually trying to make.
**
…
**
Not to mention that “anti-bullying ads is a good idea” is nowhere near synonymous with “bullying is unacceptable”.

Not only are you judging in a way you have absolutely no right to do, you are also grasping at straws.

 

[Tagetes]

I don’t know what you mean by “cute kitten” remarks

Infatuation is not the same as attraction, cute kitten

 

[Tagetes]

Not only are you judging in a way you have absolutely no right to do, you are also grasping at straws.

Did you have the right to twist my words and claim that you “agreed” with something I never said or thought?

 

[Peter_J]

Did you have the right to twist my words and claim that you “agreed” with something I never said or thought?

Are you asking me this because of the last part of my post

Fwiw, in my years on forums, I’ve seen quite a lot of people (presumably heterosexual) being told things about themselves, e.g. what their “real” motive is for converting.

Edit: if you are thinking “Well two wrongs don’t make a right” … then well I can only say “Yes of course.”

? I mean seriously? Talk about micro-managing somebody else’s posts.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Darryl B
Infatuation is not the same as attraction, cute kitten

I sympathize (that’s not sarcasm, which I realize is difficult to tell over the Internet) but I’m not a moderator. I think it’s better for me to use the “Ignore List” feature (see forums.catholic-questions.org/profile.php?do=ignorelist ) because, quite frankly, if I didn’t I would get into so many fights that I’d be afraid of getting permanently banned.

 

[Tagetes]

Are you asking me this because of the last part of my post

I saw you apply the same technique of casual misinterpretation twice within a short span and wanted to make sure you’ll think twice before applying it for the third time.

Especially given that this was literally what angered me in the Affectionate Felinologist’s post: a stranger, who never had to experience what I went through, claimed to know my thoughts and emotions better than myself.

 

[Tagetes]

Seriously, it’s often difficult to be a celibate Catholic among fellow LGBT people. But it pales in comparison to the difficulty of being a celibate LGBT person among fellow Catholics. Unlike the latter, the former are under no obligation to love and support, yet they are more likely to do so. If it weren’t for an understanding confessor (who, for the record, I had to look into for almost a year before mentioning my orientation to him, to make sure he wouldn’t turn me in), I doubt I would manage at all. And people even wonder why so many of us leave for denominations that treat us as humans.

 

[Holly3278]

I honestly think that many of these Christian denominations which accept homosexuality truly do believe that there is nothing wrong with it. As for denominations changing their beliefs over time, that is definitely not unheard of.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Seriously, it’s often difficult to be a celibate Catholic among fellow LGBT people. But it pales in comparison to the difficulty of being a celibate LGBT person among fellow Catholics. Unlike the latter, the former are under no obligation to love and support, yet they are more likely to do so. If it weren’t for an understanding confessor (who, for the record, I had to look into for almost a year before mentioning my orientation to him, to make sure he wouldn’t turn me in), I doubt I would manage at all. And people even wonder why so many of us leave for denominations that treat us as humans.

I don’t like being lumped in with “fellow catholics” who are supposedly less likely treat you with love and support. The word “likely” here appears to be an unjustifiable bias.

And I dislike the inference that “so many of us” [LGBTQ people] leave the Catholic Church for other denominations “that treat us [LGBTQ people] as humans”

I think the Catholic Church treats all humans as humans.

 

[at9009]

Seriously, it’s often difficult to be a celibate Catholic among fellow LGBT people. But it pales in comparison to the difficulty of being a celibate LGBT person among fellow Catholics. Unlike the latter, the former are under no obligation to love and support, yet they are more likely to do so. If it weren’t for an understanding confessor (who, for the record, I had to look into for almost a year before mentioning my orientation to him, to make sure he wouldn’t turn me in), I doubt I would manage at all. And people even wonder why so many of us leave for denominations that treat us as humans.

Second this. It’s like feeling at best tolerated. I honestly feel at times like some just want to add my personal cross. There are reasons why I don’t honestly feel safe or willing to invest in my church community at times. My priest confessor is awesome though and the being able to take the eucharise when able to makes up for the often lack of grace or charity I see.

 

[Peter_J]

I saw you apply the same technique of casual misinterpretation twice within a short span and wanted to make sure you’ll think twice before applying it for the third time.

Especially given that this was literally what angered me in the Affectionate Felinologist’s post: a stranger, who never had to experience what I went through, claimed to know my thoughts and emotions better than myself.

No, I did not use a “technique of casual misinterpretation”, did not claim to know your thoughts, did not claim to know your emotions, and certainly did not claim to know them better than you know them yourself. Please stop, you have absolutely no right to judge me like that.

Seriously, it’s often difficult to be a celibate Catholic among fellow LGBT people. But it pales in comparison to the difficulty of being a celibate LGBT person among fellow Catholics.

I won’t attempt to say which is worse, but honestly it really makes me angry when supposedly “good Catholics” treat celibate LGBT people badly. The USCCB issued a document, Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message To Parents Of Homosexual Children And Suggestions For Pastoral Ministers, but I hope they will do more in the same vein in the future.

 

[Peter_J]

Second this. It’s like feeling at best tolerated. I honestly feel at times like some just want to add my personal cross. There are reasons why I don’t honestly feel safe or willing to invest in my church community at times. My priest confessor is awesome though and the being able to take the eucharise when able to makes up for the often lack of grace or charity I see.

Thank you sharing that. Sounds like he pays attention to “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?”

 

[Tagetes]

I don’t like being lumped in with “fellow catholics” who are supposedly less likely treat you with love and support.

To begin with, I have no clue who you are. At all. I don’t know you in real life and we never even spoke on the forums before. It follows that I’m not familiar with your stance on LGBT issues. If you feel lumped, that’s only because you lumped yourself. It’s beyond my comprehension quite why.

The word “likely” here appears to be an unjustifiable bias.

Hate to break it to you, but this is not “unjustifiable bias”. This is my empirical knowledge. Thus far supportive LGBT people have outnumbered inimical LGBT people and inimical Catholics have outnumbered supportive Catholics. It has direct impact on my life. I don’t have the luxury of being able to shrug “well, maybe, there are some bad apples, but things must be better at a larger scale” and move on. Perhaps, they must be. But they aren’t. I know that firsthand and I deal with it 24/7.

And I dislike the inference that “so many of us” [LGBTQ people] leave the Catholic Church for other denominations “that treat us [LGBTQ people] as humans”

You dislike my wording? My deepest sympathy. I dislike spending Sundays, feasts and solemnities in the far corner, in order to spare people from dirtying their hands by a “peace be to you” handshake with me. I dislike having been denied Sacraments for years, until a new priest was assigned. I dislike being told to not darken the parochial door. I dislike having girls be warned against me: “stay away from her, she’ll grope you” (never groped anyone in my life, obviously). I dislike being within earshot of fellow Catholics I used to respect and trust, while they’re discussing how, even for Christ’s sake, they can’t bring themselves to be merciful towards “fgs and dkes”.

I dislike celibacy. Yes, I maintain it, but I dislike it. Without a tinge of eroticism. I dislike not having a soulmate to share life with: to take care of each other while sick, to cry together over sorrows and celebrate joys, to be there for when life gets rough. Sure, I have friends, which sometimes alleviates loneliness. But my friends are someone else’s spouses and their primary commitment belongs elsewhere. “But priests are celibate too!” have long gotten old and won’t work. Priests have sacramental grace to get them through lifelong singleness. Moreover, they choose their celibacy. We are condemned to ours.

Most of all, I dislike being consistently told that in spite of all the sacrifices I make Jesus doesn’t love me, that I have no connection to Him whatsoever and that I’ll end up in Hell no matter how hard I try. I dislike that I can’t help but grow to believe it.

And here you tell me that you dislike that in the Church I’ve been systematically treated as a subhuman and am not afraid to speak about it. Honestly? I couldn’t care less.

I think the Catholic Church treats all humans as humans.

The very basics of being an ally to any unprivileged minority is to prioritize their painful testimonies over one’s own wishful thinking.

 

[at9009]

I don’t like being lumped in with “fellow catholics” who are supposedly less likely treat you with love and support. The word “likely” here appears to be an unjustifiable bias.

And I dislike the inference that “so many of us” [LGBTQ people] leave the Catholic Church for other denominations “that treat us [LGBTQ people] as humans”

**Warning fairly long ramble so I do apologize but I guess its a bit of a testimony too so hope it adds perspective somewhat.

I don’t believe the other poster was lumping all Catholics into one. However, that being said, there are a sizable minority of Catholics who do not treat LGBT/ssa people well (and sadly it often feels like the rest are silent on the issue with exception of the issue of marriage). When no one really addresses the issue of lack of grace and charity in action ( document references without actually seeing in person effort to show grace makes it feel meaningless).

It may be a perception to many LGBT/ssa Catholics that they are merely tolerated at best, that it is sometimes implicit on their ability to remain closeted, and that the desire of some within the Church is for LGBT/ssa Catholics to shut up about their struggles and go hide in the back of the church so everyone can go back and pretend they don’t really exist. However, it also does feel like reality. In my own case, I’m 26 yet my family does not know and my grandparents will never know my personal cross. It’s sad that I can’t be open and honest about my life and being celibate, but I’m not looking to be a wedge issue in my family. Sadly, my story is not that unique.

I can count a significant number of times (**disclaimer; I know that this is not everyone nor am I equating everyone to this) I have heard other Catholics and other Christians equate gay people (especially men) to pedophiles, treat them as a risk to children, make assumptions about the lifestyles of gay people (rarely charity rather always assume hedonism), lament ‘the gays’ (rather than see people as individuals), and make it an us vs. them mentality where I’m stuck in this no man’s land. What I haven’t really heard or has been very rare is Catholics to fraternally correct people who make those kind of statements (the silence is all the more deafening at times). Now, I know and believe that most Catholics are kind and charitable, but when you are struggling on your own basically all alone in this particular cross, it’s hard to have hope.

It took me till 22 to realize that the Church didn’t condemn me as evil for being attracted to other guys. Why? I never heard a homily that actually made the distinction between attraction or acts. I did hear many say that having these attractions was a choice, that I’m somehow a worse Christian (or not a true one) for having them, that if I had true faith, I wouldn’t have them anymore (the fact they remain was indicative of my lack of faith), etc. With that perception, I didn’t want to go deeper into my search of the faith less I discover that I confirm what I feared: that I was damned and unlovable to God and there was no chance that I was going to ask anyone about it because I had no idea who was safe to talk to about this issue.

So, naturally I buried my feelings, kept God, friends and family a close but safe distance (lest they discover my horrible shameful secret). I was heading toward a very destructive path with deep self-loathing depression. I actually remembering thinking often that it wouldn’t be that bad to not wake up when I went to bed. It was God’s grace and a sense of I couldn’t do that to my family that probably kept me from self-harm. What saved me from this path was finding others testimony.

It was finding the blog of Joseph Prever (a celibate gay/ssa Catholic), it was seeing a book by a celibate gay Christian named Wesley Hill that helped me have hope again that I am loved by God and can live as a faithful Catholic while carrying this cross. Previously, I had more or less been going to mass out of obligation and feeling like I didn’t want to damn myself any worse than I already was. I didn’t really believe I was loved by God or even redeemable. My coping mechanism to this was to bury myself in to school work among other thinks so I wouldn’t have too much free time to think about anything).

Since then, things have been better for me. I have support of other celibate Christians in my trials and tribulations. I have found a good priest who I feel safe to confess to (when I need to), and I take comfort in being able to receive the Eucharist (when able to) every Sunday as a way for me to say yes to Christ once more. However, I still often feel unsafe in many Christian circles. I haven’t shared my testimony (except anonymously like this). I have anxiety and stress about other Church members finding out because I feel negative reaction and don’t want to be a wedge issue for the parish. I stress and fret over how to deflect dating and marriage questions (or even how to tell my testimony without including this very significant cross) and worry about if I’m lying or lying by omission.

I think the Catholic Church treats all humans as humans.

The Church yes. It’s the people within the church sadly who often fall short of that; that is the issue.

 

[jlhargus]

**Warning fairly long ramble so I do apologize but I guess its a bit of a testimony too so hope it adds perspective somewhat.

I don’t believe the other poster was lumping all Catholics into one. However, that being said, there are a sizable minority of Catholics who do not treat LGBT/ssa people well (and sadly it often feels like the rest are silent on the issue with exception of the issue of marriage). When no one really addresses the issue of lack of grace and charity in action ( document references without actually seeing in person effort to show grace makes it feel meaningless).

It may be a perception to many LGBT/ssa Catholics that they are merely tolerated at best, that it is sometimes implicit on their ability to remain closeted, and that the desire of some within the Church is for LGBT/ssa Catholics to shut up about their struggles and go hide in the back of the church so everyone can go back and pretend they don’t really exist. However, it also does feel like reality. In my own case, I’m 26 yet my family does not know and my grandparents will never know my personal cross. It’s sad that I can’t be open and honest about my life and being celibate, but I’m not looking to be a wedge issue in my family. Sadly, my story is not that unique.

I can count a significant number of times (**disclaimer; I know that this is not everyone nor am I equating everyone to this) I have heard other Catholics and other Christians equate gay people (especially men) to pedophiles, treat them as a risk to children, make assumptions about the lifestyles of gay people (rarely charity rather always assume hedonism), lament ‘the gays’ (rather than see people as individuals), and make it an us vs. them mentality where I’m stuck in this no man’s land. What I haven’t really heard or has been very rare is Catholics to fraternally correct people who make those kind of statements (the silence is all the more deafening at times). Now, I know and believe that most Catholics are kind and charitable, but when you are struggling on your own basically all alone in this particular cross, it’s hard to have hope.

It took me till 22 to realize that the Church didn’t condemn me as evil for being attracted to other guys. Why? I never heard a homily that actually made the distinction between attraction or acts. I did hear many say that having these attractions was a choice, that I’m somehow a worse Christian (or not a true one) for having them, that if I had true faith, I wouldn’t have them anymore (the fact they remain was indicative of my lack of faith), etc. With that perception, I didn’t want to go deeper into my search of the faith less I discover that I confirm what I feared: that I was damned and unlovable to God and there was no chance that I was going to ask anyone about it because I had no idea who was safe to talk to about this issue.

So, naturally I buried my feelings, kept God, friends and family a close but safe distance (lest they discover my horrible shameful secret). I was heading toward a very destructive path with deep self-loathing depression. I actually remembering thinking often that it wouldn’t be that bad to not wake up when I went to bed. It was God’s grace and a sense of I couldn’t do that to my family that probably kept me from self-harm. What saved me from this path was finding others testimony.

It was finding the blog of Joseph Prever (a celibate gay/ssa Catholic), it was seeing a book by a celibate gay Christian named Wesley Hill that helped me have hope again that I am loved by God and can live as a faithful Catholic while carrying this cross. Previously, I had more or less been going to mass out of obligation and feeling like I didn’t want to damn myself any worse than I already was. I didn’t really believe I was loved by God or even redeemable. My coping mechanism to this was to bury myself in to school work among other thinks so I wouldn’t have too much free time to think about anything).

Since then, things have been better for me. I have support of other celibate Christians in my trials and tribulations. I have found a good priest who I feel safe to confess to (when I need to), and I take comfort in being able to receive the Eucharist (when able to) every Sunday as a way for me to say yes to Christ once more. However, I still often feel unsafe in many Christian circles. I haven’t shared my testimony (except anonymously like this). I have anxiety and stress about other Church members finding out because I feel negative reaction and don’t want to be a wedge issue for the parish. I stress and fret over how to deflect dating and marriage questions (or even how to tell my testimony without including this very significant cross) and worry about if I’m lying or lying by omission.

The Church yes. It’s the people within the church sadly who often fall short of that; that is the issue.

Great testimony, don’t ever give up. I think you might be surprised how many people would accept you. Everyone likes a fighter.

 

[commenter]

In response to LGBT Catholics, and other Christians, who have felt the victim of unspoken or spoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes and lots of other unChristian behaviors from other Catholics, like myself, I apologize and admit I likely have done it. In my defense, I have also been guilty of spoken and unspoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes/and worse, towards gay non Catholics, towards heterosexuals, and anybody else.

I am a work in progress, and hoping to change.