Do other Christian denominations accept homosexuality for their own convenience?

[Lion_IRC]

Lion IRC;14256588:

I don’t like being lumped in with “fellow catholics” who are supposedly less likely

treat you with love and support.
To begin with, I have no clue who you are. At all. I don’t know you in real life and we never even spoke on the forums before. It follows that I’m not familiar with your stance on LGBT issues.

Then why do you generalize about people you don’t know - like me?

…If you feel lumped, that’s only because you lumped yourself.

No. It’s because you write disparaging remarks about the Catholic Church as a denomination and the attitudes of people in general who attend that church.
Whatever axe you may have to grind in real life, coming here and complaining in general about how catholics behave is tantamount to negative stereotyping.

Lion IRC;14256588:

The word “likely” here appears to be an unjustifiable bias…

Hate to break it to you, but this is not “unjustifiable bias”. This is my empirical knowledge. Thus far supportive LGBT people have outnumbered inimical LGBT people and inimical Catholics have outnumbered supportive Catholics.

I hate to break it to you but your anecdotes do not entitle you to make sweeping generalisations about catholics versus LGBTQI people. You are taking some very sketchy details of events which you claim happened to you, and which you believe represent anti-gay sentiment and claiming that is characteristic of catholics and the Catholic Church.

Lion IRC;14256588:

…I dislike the inference that “so many of us”

[LGBTQ people] leave the Catholic Church for other denominations "that treat us [LGBTQ people] as humans"You dislike my wording? My deepest sympathy.

Snarkasm won’t help.

I dislike spending Sundays, feasts and solemnities in the far corner, in order to spare people from dirtying their hands by a “peace be to you” handshake with me.

To any non-catholic readers of this thread, please note that this is NOT what happens at Catholic Churches. The Catholic Church does NOT force gay people to sit in the corner. Parishioners do NOT withhold the sign of peace. The implication that Catholics think gay people are ‘dirty’ and untouchable is gross misinformation.

…I dislike being within earshot of fellow Catholics I used to respect and trust, while they’re discussing how, even for Christ’s sake, they can’t bring themselves to be merciful towards “fgs and dkes”.

Once again, you are posting incredible (and disgusting) anecdotes - which we are supposed to believe - and the implication is that that behaviour is typical and that it is the reason why LGBTQI people dislike the Catholic Church.

…Most of all, I dislike being consistently told that in spite of all the sacrifices I make Jesus doesn’t love me

Consistently told?
I’m sorry - I don’t believe you.
That is unscriptural. That is not Catholic Church teaching.

…And here you tell me that you dislike that in the Church I’ve been systematically treated as a subhuman

You said LGBT people leave the Church because it doesn’t treat them like humans.

I said…

…I think the Catholic Church treats all humans as humans.

I’m sorry that you THINK it systematically treats you as ‘subhuman’.

I’m even more sorry that you want others to think that is true.

I’m trying to engage with you and contend that what you believe about the Catholic Church ISNT true, and what do I get back,

…Honestly? I couldn’t care less.

 

[Lion_IRC]

If Tagetes can post the actual name of the church/parish where this supposedly takes place I should like very much to visit it and meet with some of the parishioners in real life.
Perhaps there are other catholic forum members nearby to that church who can also visit to see if it is vastly different to a normal, typical catholic Church.

 

[Peter_J]

In response to LGBT Catholics, and other Christians, who have felt the victim of unspoken or spoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes and lots of other unChristian behaviors from other Catholics, like myself, I apologize and admit I likely have done it. In my defense, I have also been guilty of spoken and unspoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes/and worse, towards gay non Catholics, towards heterosexuals, and anybody else.

I am a work in progress, and hoping to change.

That describes me pretty well too.

In terms of being a work in progress, I would mention that I have opposed the recent efforts of some on this forum to criminalize homosexual acts (and only homosexual acts, not premarital sex, contraception, masturbation etc). I know that my younger self would have been extremely shocked if he could have known that about his older self.

 

[Tagetes]

Then why do you generalize about people you don’t know - like me?

How come describing my experience with people I know is generalizing about people I don’t know? Seriously, you’re literally being this:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

You’re twisting my words - literally never had I claimed that every Catholic behaves like this, but to me the fact that many or even some do is enough to be disturbed and to speak up. FYI, I have (awesome!) Catholic friends, who voted “Yes” in the Irish referendum. Does their existence cancel those who tried to keep me out of the Church? No. For some reason I can’t fathom you use black-and-white dichotomy - either every Catholic bullies gay people, or no Catholic ever did - and, based on it, accuse me of lying. You don’t know people I talk about to swear I have never been ostracized by them. You don’t even know which countries (yes, in plural) I and they live in. But please, suit yourself. Everyone is welcome to go through the thread and reread all my posts right from the beginning. I’ve put it very clearly where I stand and those imputations won’t hold water.

 

[Tagetes]

If Tagetes can post the actual name of the church/parish where this supposedly takes place I should like very much to visit it and meet with some of the parishioners in real life.

You’re going to need a lot of money and may want to learn a new language or two. Or three.

 

[Tagetes]

In response to LGBT Catholics, and other Christians, who have felt the victim of unspoken or spoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes and lots of other unChristian behaviors from other Catholics, like myself, I apologize and admit I likely have done it. In my defense, I have also been guilty of spoken and unspoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes/and worse, towards gay non Catholics, towards heterosexuals, and anybody else.

I am a work in progress, and hoping to change.

That’s mature and considerate, and reassuring.
Truly thank you.

 

[at9009]

In response to LGBT Catholics, and other Christians, who have felt the victim of unspoken or spoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes and lots of other unChristian behaviors from other Catholics, like myself, I apologize and admit I likely have done it. In my defense, I have also been guilty of spoken and unspoken dislike/avoidance/ickyness/disdain/curt remarks/judgmental attitudes/and worse, towards gay non Catholics, towards heterosexuals, and anybody else.

I am a work in progress, and hoping to change.

Thanks for your statement. We are all human; so we are all working and trying to progress in our spiritual journeys in our own sanctification processes. We often fall short of, but we all strive to become better people, to become closer to God, and become better examples of his disciples. I think it comes to me as the idea of being humble and trying to learn and master the virtues of charity and compassion.

I think the hardest lesson for me to learn as I’m dealing with this particular issue is this: I’ve been dealing with being gay/same sex attracted my entire life (more or less aware of it for in great detail with regard to theology and how that affects me for the past 4 or so). I myself need to enact patience, compassion, and charity to others who don’t deal with my cross or understand my own personal trials and tribulations. It can be easy to get frustrated and discouraged but I need to have the patience and charity to help others understand my situation, to realize that most want to understand, and hopefully help both me and the other person better understand each other which leads to fostering better communication, compassion, and empathy.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Great testimony, don’t ever give up. I think you might be surprised how many people would accept you. Everyone likes a fighter.

at9009-

I agree. That took guts to share with strangers. God bless you on your journey.

I have been wondering if those families that wish to welcome people that bear your cross should let their priest know so that he can know where to send people for a friendly pew or someone to socialize with. Part of your cross must include some loneliness. As Catholics, we should be stepping forward to help those who are lonely or feel excluded. I hope you can get out of your corner and find some friendly families in your parish. Maybe ask your priest? For my part, my husband and I already talked about this so I will mention it to our priest, so we can help welcome people that may not always feel welcome. I have tremendous respect for the fact that you have additional burdens to carry, and yet, you are willing to sacrifice so much for the love of Christ. Perhaps I can help someone in your position in my parish. We are one Church and one Body.

 

[at9009]

If Tagetes can post the actual name of the church/parish where this supposedly takes place I should like very much to visit it and meet with some of the parishioners in real life.
Perhaps there are other catholic forum members nearby to that church who can also visit to see if it is vastly different to a normal, typical catholic Church.

I think I am seeing a disconnect between you and Tagetes. While you are focusing directly on Catholic teaching, doctrine, the official office of the Church and its treatment of LGBT/ssa people, tagetes is speaking from personal experience of members (guessing lay members but maybe some people in more official roles as well) of the Catholic church. They are not describing the Church, itself, as an issue, but rather many members who fail and continue to fail to live up to its standards with regards to their treatment of LGBT/ssa members.

I would humbly request to not accuse them of lying about their experiences. There are bad experiences that LGBT/ssa experience with church members and around church sadly. I know of LGBT/ssa people who have left the church because of it. This is not debate, this is not opinion, this is fact. I am also not saying that the Church teaching is wrong.

What can be discussed is the pastoral support, community support, and other issues (which can be addressed with any number of important issues).

For example, Eve Tushnet has being saying (and the premise of her book), a celibate gay/ssa person’s vocation can’t be a vocation of no yet that is often what many feel. Don’t do this, don’t do that, you can’t have this… With that kind of perspective, a lifelong path of celibacy without a significant other (in a culture that idolatries marriage and romance), it seems rather bleak. It is framed as a vocation of friendship, of reaching out to others, of the importance of love in friendship…etc. is seems far more possible.

But, I apologize, I feel this distracts far too much from the this forums original topic.

 

[commenter]

I honestly think that many of these Christian denominations which accept homosexuality truly do believe that there is nothing wrong with it. As for denominations changing their beliefs over time, that is definitely not unheard of.

There may be cases of denominations changing their beliefs over time. This trend is something else. Mainline denominations aren’t changing their beliefs, they are giving up “beliefs”, and following the secular media. If they are unable to identify homosexual actions as sinful, it’s because they are more and more unable to recognize ****anything **** as sinful. It has to do with losing their sense of sin, not some gain in “diversity”.

Bullying could have been a lot worse in decades past. What restrained it somewhat was the sense most people had, most of the time, that hurting people is objectively wrong, in a context that some things are inherently right/wrong, and true/false. As America and half its Protestant churches move away from **that **context, expect to see more bullying of gays, and everyone else. “Morality is relative”.

 

[Tagetes]

I think I am seeing a disconnect between you and Tagetes. While you are focusing directly on Catholic teaching, doctrine, the official office of the Church and its treatment of LGBT/ssa people, tagetes is speaking from personal experience of members (guessing lay members but maybe some people in more official roles as well) of the Catholic church. They are not describing the Church, itself, as an issue, but rather many members who fail and continue to fail to live up to its standards with regards to their treatment of LGBT/ssa members.

I would humbly request to not accuse them of lying about their experiences. There are bad experiences that LGBT/ssa experience with church members and around church sadly. I know of LGBT/ssa people who have left the church because of it. This is not debate, this is not opinion, this is fact. I am also not saying that the Church teaching is wrong.

Tagetes is she/her, not they/them.
The rest is 100% correct.

 

[Lion_IRC]

You’re going to need a lot of money and may want to learn a new language or two. Or three.

What makes you think I lack the money?
What makes you think I don’t speak the language used at your church?

…are you now claiming to know stuff about me in this regard?

Oh and by the way, are you unwilling to name this particular Catholic Church - the one you have disparaged?

 

[Peter_J]

Then why do you generalize about people you don’t know - like me?

No. It’s because you write disparaging remarks about the Catholic Church as a denomination and the attitudes of people in general who attend that church.
Whatever axe you may have to grind in real life, coming here and complaining in general about how catholics behave is tantamount to negative stereotyping.

I hate to break it to you but your anecdotes do not entitle you to make sweeping generalisations about catholics versus LGBTQI people. You are taking some very sketchy details of events which you claim happened to you, and which you believe represent anti-gay sentiment and claiming that is characteristic of catholics and the Catholic Church.

Snarkasm won’t help.

To any non-catholic readers of this thread, please note that this is NOT what happens at Catholic Churches. The Catholic Church does NOT force gay people to sit in the corner. Parishioners do NOT withhold the sign of peace. The implication that Catholics think gay people are ‘dirty’ and untouchable is gross misinformation.

Once again, you are posting incredible (and disgusting) anecdotes - which we are supposed to believe - and the implication is that that behaviour is typical and that it is the reason why LGBTQI people dislike the Catholic Church.

Consistently told?
I’m sorry - I don’t believe you.
That is unscriptural. That is not Catholic Church teaching.

You said LGBT people leave the Church because it doesn’t treat them like humans.

I said…

I’m sorry that you THINK it systematically treats you as ‘subhuman’.

I’m even more sorry that you want others to think that is true.

I’m trying to engage with you and contend that what you believe about the Catholic Church ISNT true, and what do I get back,

If Tagetes can post the actual name of the church/parish where this supposedly takes place I should like very much to visit it and meet with some of the parishioners in real life.
Perhaps there are other catholic forum members nearby to that church who can also visit to see if it is vastly different to a normal, typical catholic Church.

What makes you think I lack the money?
What makes you think I don’t speak the language used at your church?

…are you now claiming to know stuff about me in this regard?

Oh and by the way, are you unwilling to name this particular Catholic Church - the one you have disparaged?

I’m not sure what your deal is, as it were, but I’m not going to spend time trying to figure it out. Good day to you.