Do other religions require faith?

[Peaceable]

As I mentioned in another thread, this is an error in translation. It’s only the egoistic “Self” that is considered transitory compared to the sacred “Self” (which is considered “real” or “ more real.” ( There are different terms and concepts that here that are both poorly translated into English as “Self.”

A crude translation, still way off, would be “your transitory selfish wishes are less meaningful than your Soul, in a spiritual/religious sense.”

 

[TomH1]

I highly doubt that one could do all the “right” things according to Judaism, but reject the existence of God entirely (or, say, worship one or more of the Hindu pantheon) and still be considered to be OK spiritually.

I am sure that there are core beliefs about God or the gods, aka faith, that one must have in any religion.

It seems to be true that at least some other religions are less concerned with folks having the “correct” beliefs about the nature of God. I don’t think that means that they aren’t based on faith though.

I have never said that Jews do not need to believe in God. Indeed, the Jewish ‘creed’, called Shema Yisrael: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One’, expresses succinctly their faith. However, that does not alter the fact that in Judaism one’s practice is more important than one’s theology.

It is wrong, and, indeed, insulting, to consider that in other religions they must simply have a belief system that is analogous to Christianity. The difference between the various schools of Judaism is the result of practice and not the core, fundamental belief of Judaism in the one G-d.

 

[TomH1]

I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet but perhaps are using slightly different tunes. I agree that Jews believe in God, or as they would write it, G-d. Their core belief is that there is only one God. However, with that core belief in mind they recognise practise of correct Jewish conduct as highly important and more so than theology.

 

[arthra]

Neithan asked:

" Is there a revealed event that is a required belief in Baha’i to fulfill some kind of happy eternal destiny?"

Baha’is accept that there have been Manifestations of God and They are in many cases the Founders of major religions. So we accept that the Origin of these revelations is the same and that God has revealed teachings that are suited for the age and capacities of people to accept. You can read more about this at

Progressive Revelation

 

[Neithan]

Interesting. So are Baha’is required to believe in the physical and glorious resurrection of Jesus? I mean physical to distinguish it from ideas of a spiritual resurrection (or symbolic), and glorious to mean a final perfection of a single human incarnation, rather than a temporary reanimation or reincarnation.

 

[Neithan]

In addition there are many Bhakti paths of spirituality that involve the necessity of faith.

Lots of discussion of faith in Hindu thought.

Is it faith in something exoteric, like a revealed fact or something that happened: anything corporeal? If faith is more substantial than belief based on trust in authority, then it is both subjective and objective, but whether the latter can be entirely immaterial depends on what kind of realism one accepts. If we had faith in the reality of Platonic forms, for example, I think that would be objective but still esoteric, because there is nothing external to an intellect or will: no event that could be known to the unschooled or fact to apprehend without special knowledge.

On this point I also question whether the apparently necessary belief for Islam: the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, was actually an event or fact open to witnesses, or something privy only to the chosen one, the prophet; whether it was exoteric, or esoteric. Muhammad’s claim for revelation was his subjective experience, like Zoroaster — and perhaps Madhvacharya. Did something actually happen to ground a faith or is it trusting in a man’s word about his own knowledge and ideas?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

In addition there are many Bhakti paths of spirituality that involve the necessity of faith.

Lots of discussion of faith in Hindu thought.

Is it faith in something exoteric, like a revealed fact or something that happened: anything corporeal? If faith is more substantial than belief based on trust in authority, then it is both subjective and objective, but whether the latter can be entirely immaterial depends on what kind of realism one accepts. If we had faith in the reality of Platonic forms, for example, I think that would be objective but still esoteric, because there is nothing external to an intellect or will: no event that could be known to the unschooled or fact to apprehend without special knowledge.

On this point I also question whether the apparently necessary belief for Islam: the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, was actually an event or fact open to witnesses, or something privy only to the chosen one, the prophet; whether it was exoteric, or esoteric. Muhammad’s claim for revelation was his subjective experience, like Zoroaster — and perhaps Madhvacharya. Did something actually happen to ground a faith or is it trusting in a man’s word about his own knowledge and ideas?

Catholic scripture and tradition are different, of course, than other religions. As Catholics we hold that the fullness of faith is in the Catholic Church and that revelation of the plan of salvation is complete (so no more prophets). Islam and Dvaita-Vedanta provide different sources of authority than Christianity.

Catholic Encyclopedia on faith:

Objectively, it stands for the sum of truths revealed by God in Scripture and tradition and which the Church (see RULE OF FAITH) presents to us in a brief form in her creeds, subjectively, faith stands for the habit or virtue by which we assent to those truths.

Pope, H. (1909). Faith. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

 

[Neithan]

Agreed. I’m curious if there is a comparable “revealed fact” that is a necessary belief in other religions i.e. something miraculous happened that must be believed as the object and purpose of faith. I’m not sure about Islam, because I think at least Sunnis believe the Quran itself is a revelation; but it must be read or heard in Arabic to “witness” it, and then it still must be believed, so it seems like a kind of infinite regress of faith or recursive revelation. Believe this because you must believe this because etc. etc.

 

[Niblo]

Sunnis believe the Quran itself is a revelation

Just for information:: All Muslims believe this, and not just Sunnis.

Have a good day.

 

[Neithan]

Thank you; I was thinking about the uncreated/created distinction. In any case, is the purpose of faith for a Muslim the belief in the Quran itself and trusting that Muhammad is the Messenger or is that necessary for salvation?

Consider the three Abrahamic religions. What is it about Islamic revelation, mediated by the Archangel Jibreel, that reveals the essential purpose — or end, as a final cause — of faith that, say, a Christian or Jew does not have if they don’t have this belief? As a Christian, I would say that the Jew does not necessarily have the certainty of resurrection, for example (cf. Sadducees). Christianity is in that way additive and contingent on a revealed faith: something new about God and his will for us. Since Islam denies the resurrection, it seems subtractive, removing the requirement for that faith; but then shouldn’t that simply bring us back to Judaism?

If a Muslim does not assent to a literal revelation, but believes and follows the moral laws of Islam, is there a difference for their judgment? It’s difficult to ask anything about judgment in Islam I think because everything is about the absolute discretionary power of Allah, but presumably there continues to be some kind of divine inspiration for the Imams who interpret the Quran?

 

[Niblo]

Hello Neithan.

In Islamic theology there are six articles of faith (known collectively as arkān al-īmān). They are (in brief):

Belief in the Oneness of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla): Muslims believe, as you do, that the Exalted is the Creator and Sustainer of all things; and that He is both omnipotent and omniscient. The majority of Muslims believe – as you and I do – that He is also omnipresent. Puritans dispute this. All Muslims are unitarian.

Belief in His angels: The one difference between the Muslim and Christian understanding of these beings is that, for us, they do not possess free will. They worship their Lord, and carry out His commands. They did not, and cannot, rebel against Him.

Belief in His Books: These include the Qur’an; the Torah (given to Moses); the ʾInjīl (given to Yeshua); the Psalms (given to David); and the Scrolls (given to Abraham). With respect, I intend to set aside the matter of scriptural integrity. This lies outside the scope of this thread.

Belief in His Prophets or Messengers: Twenty-five are mentioned by name in the Qur’an; and include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Yeshua (may the Exalted be pleased with all of them).

Belief in the Day of Judgement: Muslims and Christians would find common ground here.

Belief in the Divine Decree: In a nutshell, nothing happens without the Exalted’s decree; His fiat. In the Qur’an we read: ‘Do not say of anything, “I will do that tomorrow,” without adding, “God willing,” and whenever you forget, remember your Lord and say, “May my Lord guide me closer to what is right.”’ (Al-Kahf: 23-24).

In šāʾ Allāh (‘God willing’) has its equivalent, of course, in the expression ‘Deo volente’ (DV)

There is absolutely no need for a Christian or a Jew to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

And this, concerning those Jews and Christians who are true to their particular religion:

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8; my emphasis).

This is the Exalted’s solemn promise; and He does not renege on His promises.

I hope this clarifies a few things!

 

[Niblo]

If a Muslim does not assent to a literal revelation, but believes and follows the moral laws of Islam, is there a difference for their judgment?

There are those (puritans) who do adopt a literal interpretation of the Qur’an. The Exalted, for example, really does sit on a Throne; finite in form but infinite in knowledge and power. The opinion of the majority of scholars is that the Qur’an is not to be treated this way.

Where there is disagreement between the scholars, the believer is required to learn all she can about this and about that. Having decided where the truth lies - for her, that is - she must act according to her conscience. She must continue doing this until - as may be - something happens to cause an honest change of heart; something that - again in all good conscience - leads to a new path; a new way of reaching her ultimate goal (what she - and, of course, everyone of us - was created for): An eternity with Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) in Heaven.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) knows best!

 

[Neithan]

Thank you kindly @Niblo for describing this so eloquently. I suppose what I am aiming at is whether Islam is so entirely dependent on a single revealed event that gives hope and a purpose, like Christianity is. This Catholic Answers tract describes it well What the Early Church Believed: Resurrection of the Body | Catholic Answers. It’s the essential doctrine of faith and something that we claim happened in an objective, exoteric, corporeal way, on which we base everything else.

If Jesus did not rise, then, as St. Paul stated, we are still in our sins, and in fact, people to be pitied; Christianity simply is not true and is a pointless endeavour, a failed heresy of Judaism. Christianity — at least the classic, Apostolic kind in the Catholic and Orthodox Church — also demands this belief of all people, in an exclusive way, and demands conversion in order to partake of it. The reason for the faith is extrinsic: we don’t believe in order to believe, but we believe in order to hope for resurrection. In heaven we have no more need for faith.

If Islam does not see a need for a Jew or Christian to convert and assent to some belief that they lack, then it appears not to require faith; that it is an option, but the decree of Allah is utterly transcendent, absolutely unrestricted and discretionary.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I appreciate your clarification. Sometimes we can easily discount other views as we easily don’t fully understand them. There is certainly room for faith in Hinduism because it shares something with most religions. That is, until one realizes something for themselves, they must take the word of another. And most people do not have the where-with-all or natural gift to arrive at these realizations.

 

[Peaceable]

I’m not an expert in this area, but very roughly, There’s a kind of faith that is grounded in direct experience—either through the senses (as in a revelation where one sees or hears the divine), Or through a kind of intuitive spiritual “sensing” or “inner knowing” (doesn’t translate well into Western thought—still way off, but the idea would be something like a locution that is typically but not necessarily fruit of prayer and spiritual exercises). There there’s a kind of faith comes from belief in what holy people say and the scriptures of Hinduism. For someone like Madhavacharya, who became a monk in childhood, I think we’re to assume he had at least the second kind of perceptual experience. (To round out the faith discussion, there is also a conception of faith that implies belief or conviction— the”faith” one has when one knows or is certain. Example may be that of visionaries, for instance—their faith is grounded in knowing, not in trusting the faith of experts).

 

[Peaceable]

Said it more concisely than I did!

 

[Neithan]

Yes that’s the difference between an esoteric and exoteric object of faith, or a private and a public revelation. There is also an intrinsic and extrinsic purpose of faith, or an inner trust that something is true in itself as a kind of devotional exercise, and trust that something happened that is the hope for something else, namely, eternal happiness. Faith is only required where the truth to be grasped exceeds our ability to apprehend it through our own natural reasoning or observation.

Judaism is a religion of a public revelation: a historical covenant between a people and their God; but it is practical, based on actions, and faith is not required to obey the Mosaic law: it is there for any Jew to see, read, understand and follow. Living righteously under the law is a fulfilment of the covenant and not a hope for something else to happen.

Christianity is also based on this public revelation but adds the requirement of faith in a particular and new public revelation: the Resurrection of Jesus. This requires faith because it was a unique event that we can no longer witness without trusting the testimony of the Apostles. It is an extrinsic faith because we don’t trust the Apostles simply because we must do so to respect the truth, but because they witnessed the Resurrection and their testimony is the “substance of hope” for our own resurrection.

Hinduism seems almost entirely esoteric and intrinsic in its object and purpose. Madhavacharya seems to stand in contrast to most schools because of his use of realism and dualism, where faith in what he taught is to further the bhakti spirituality for some souls who will experience a final reincarnation of happiness. It does not seem there was a public revelation at any time, so it depends on something esoteric.

There is more at issue with the metaphysics of Hinduism. I’m not sure if faith is required for bhakti and why. If our bodies are not essential to ourselves as personal creatures then faith seems an arbitrary and temporary limitation. In fact this entire mortal life seems arbitrary if we are not our bodies.

 

[Niblo]

I suppose what I am aiming at is whether Islam is so entirely dependent on a single revealed event that gives hope and a purpose

Hello again, Neithan.

What gives hope and purpose to a Muslim is revealed in the Qur’an.

Every day of their lives – many times a day – Muslims recite the following sūrah:

‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (Al-Fatiha).

‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names, these are His favourite. That is why we are asked to recite them so often – so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself to us with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness. Islam places great emphasis on the nature of this forgiveness.

According to Islamic theology all will stand before Him on the Day of Judgement; and each will be given a record of their life. It is a tradition that good deeds are recorded straight away; but that bad deeds are recorded only after a delay of some hours; to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah). Not only does tawbah wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

In sūrah ‘Qaf’ we are told that the Beloved is closer to each of us than our jugular vein (Verse 16). He also asks us to remember Him; and promises to remember us in return (Al-Baqara:152).

In the Tanakh we read: ‘What is man, that you make so much of him, and that you set your heart on him?’ (Job 7:17). Indeed!

It is source of great wonder – of amazement beyond description – that He who is Lord of the Worlds (of the whole of creation) should have such love for humankind. His love is both the root cause of our hope; and the driving force behind our most important ‘purpose’: To love Him in return.

May the Lord of all the Worlds continue to love and cherish both you and your family.

 

[Neithan]

That is beautifully stated. It just puzzles me why an archangel would contradict the Resurrection, and I think of the words of St. Paul in Galatians 1:8.

May the Lord of all the Worlds continue to love and cherish both you and your family.

And you and yours as well.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you, Neithan.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) knows best!

Again, may His blessings be upon you. Follow the path He has given you, and be at peace.