Do people really go to Hell for masturbation and using birth control?

[setter]

In my orginal post, I don’t think I was implying that hell wasn’t real or that not many people would go there. I was pointing out what leads to it. yes many people experience condemnation. It happens because most people can not resist the temptation to stand in judgement of others. Jesus says it over and over in parables and in straight forward words. Those who condemn will be condemned. Those who forgive will be forgiven.

Consider that the warning of Jesus to those who condemn and refuse to forgive others is but an objective measure and mirror of one’s state of sin condition [of refusing to receive God’s healing grace] that deprives a soul of God’s saving grace.

I can’t think of a single time he mentioned the dangers of masturbation. He did meet a woman caught in the act of adultery (the worst of sexual sins) He didn’t treat the sin lightly, he actually told those who brought her to him to go ahead and stone her - with the suggestion that the one who was without sin should through the first.

When no one followed through, he warned her she would do well to avoid that sin any more. But he didn’t automatically consign her to hell.

Jim

Nor did Jesus mention by name the grave sin of homosexual behavior.

Masturbation is a sin of impurity and sin of the flesh which the New Testament writers mention regularly as contrary to righteousnes and left unrepentent bringing condemnation to one’s soul.

Jesus was evidencing to the adulterous woman and her accusers that only God, and God alone, can judge and forgive sins, if even through His human instruments. This was to usher in the internal law of grace to repent and receive His forgiveness by being washed in the perfect blood sacrifice of the Cross.

 

[Sailboat]

Jesus does repeatedly admonish people to reserve judgement to God and not take it upon themselves to assume that responsiblity. Obviously the human tendency is to point out the faults of others but ignore our own. The famous log in our own eye, splintter in our brothers is a classic analogy Christ makes.

As far as Masturbation, I think he isn’t overly focused on that subject. He definately call for men to stop treating women as sex objects and lusting in our hearts for them because we have such a weakness in this area. Also, to live up to our responsiblity and not divorce them and abandon them. Jesus seemed to be very pro-woman especially for his day.

 

[ichabode]

Masturbation - At what level is the symbolic raping of persons offensive to God?

If birth control was not a serious subject that relates to salvation then why would the Holy Spirit inspire this passage?
Deut.23

1]
"He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

 

[Sailboat]

I think St Paul understood that we men should marry rather than burn with unquenched sexual desire that might lead us down the wrong path. He said that. Most of us need wives to live ordered lives. That was what reformed me. A good woman is like medicine. Women are a gift from God. Not many men are cut out for a life without them.

 

[MikeinSD]

I look at the historical record of who condemed who to hell. Looks like politics and all too human hatred turned a theological concept into a “I don’t like you. Therefore my god doesn’t like you. And you are going to hell.”

an example:

Thus he does not stop at the mention of sins in general, nor of these only, but goes over the several kinds of sin, to shame men, as it were, of being under the direction of the law; and having thus particularized some, he adds a reference to those omitted, though what he had enumerated were sufficient to withdraw men. Of whom then does he say these things? Of the Jews, for they were “murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers”: they were “profane and unholy,” for these too he means when he says, “ungodly and sinners,” and being such, the law was necessarily given to them. For did they not repeatedly worship idols? did they not stone Moses? were not their hands imbrued in the blood of their kindred? Do not the prophets constantly accuse them of these things? But to those who are instructed by a heavenly philosophy, these commandments are superfluous. “For murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liers, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine”; for all the things which he had mentioned were the passions of a corrupted soul, and contrary, therefore, to sound doctrine.
Thus he does not stop at the mention of sins in general, nor of these only, but goes over the several kinds of sin, to shame men, as it were, of being under the direction of the law; and having thus particularized some, he adds a reference to those omitted, though what he had enumerated were sufficient to withdraw men. Of whom then does he say these things? Of the Jews, for they were “murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers”: they were “profane and unholy,” for these too he means when he says, “ungodly and sinners,” and being such, the law was necessarily given to them. For did they not repeatedly worship idols? did they not stone Moses? were not their hands imbrued in the blood of their kindred? Do not the prophets constantly accuse them of these things? But to those who are instructed by a heavenly philosophy, these commandments are superfluous. “For murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liers, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine”; for all the things which he had mentioned were the passions of a corrupted soul, and contrary, therefore, to sound doctrine.
St. John Chrysostom
legionofmarytidewater.com/blog/?p=123

Of course the southern baptist part of the family had definate beliefs on who got to heaven based on skin pigmentation. Folks with lighter skin pigmentation could and did justify lynching folks with darker skin pigmentation. And it was supposed ok by the bible. This was based on Old Testament such as:

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. (Exod. 21:20-21)

Of course “slavery” was moral condition imposed on the sons of Ham. And just because slavery was illegal after 1865 didn’t mean that the people with darker skin pigmentation still weren’t “slaves”:
"When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan; a slave of slave shall he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. God enlarge Japeth and let him dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.”
(Genesis 9:26).

I figure damning other folks to hell is politics expressed on a theological level.

 

[drforjc]

The same Church refuses to definitively comment on the salvation/damnation of Pontius Pilate or Judas. Or, really, the damnation of anyone in particular, including Hitler.

As for deceptive - I could go on about this, but the prime reason is because it assumes knowledge we simply do not have. Is one act of using birth control or masturbating enough to land you in hell? You can suppose culpability, states of mind, etc to argue yes. On the other hand, you can also argue that Original Sin and the basic state of man is enough to warrant such a result anyway. We do not know how God will judge a specific individual or sin - we know God is just. At the same time, we CAN know what is or is not sinful, why it is or isn’t, how it affects us, etc.

It’s far more productive to talk about sin and the harm it causes to the soul, to daily life, etc. It’s along the lines of ‘Why should you not commit perjury?’ - The ‘ultimate’ result (You can go to prison) should not be the first reason not to, if only because there are other, more pertinent reasons perjury is wrong regardless of whether you go to prison because of it.

Your point is one of whether it is “productive” to use fear of hell as a motive for avoiding sin.
At a purely theological level I agree with you, but at the psychological level, human nature being what it is, I think that some people who might not respond to the more perfect motives for avoiding sin might, as a last resort, at least be sufficiently motivated by the fear of hell as to go to confession where, as you know, imperfect contrition suffices for the forgiveness of sins.
As for being “deceptive,” I don’t think you have made a case whatsoever.

 

[tvdxer]

I’ve seen lots of threads here about people worried about masturbation and their immortal souls. I never see any ones asking the same about birth control, although I find it hard to believe that every single person at this site uses NFP, since the statistics are pretty dismil on adherence to that Catholic teaching by Catholics.

I just find it hard to believe that God would send someone to Hell for these sins. Yes, I think they are sins but I’ll tell you right here that my wife and I used birthcontrol for years after the birth of our son. Then my wife got interrested in NFP. It’s a healthier way to live, it’s good for your marriage, and it’s what the Church says to do.

As far as masturbation, why I’d say that probably most young men and a good number of young women do it, and alot of adults do too. I’m not saying it’s not a sin, but I find it hard to believe that you’re going to Hell under any circumstances for doing it.

Do you think people really go to Hell for these things?

Yes, both things can definitely send one to hell, if they are aware that they are committing a mortal sin, and do not confess it later on or receive forgiveness/absolution from God in some other way.

As for those who masturbate or use birth control - will they go to hell? I don’t think all will. Many who masturbate have been taught that it is completely normal, or think of it as such. An occasional guilt feeling may cross their mind, but I don’t know if this really fulfills the conditions for mortal sin. Surely few today think it is so serious that they could land in hell for it.

Most adults today use some form of birth control. I don’t think most Protestants and other Non-Catholics using realize its sinfulness; however, many Catholics ARE at least partially aware that it is a mortal sin.

Should we keep youth “invincibly” ignorant of these things? Of course not. That’s a very dodgy way of thinking. As far as I know, their actions still offend God.

 

[fix]

Veritatis splendor

In point of fact, man does not suffer perdition only by being unfaithful to that fundamental option whereby he has made “a free self-commitment to God”.113 With every freely committed mortal sin, he offends God as the giver of the law and as a result becomes guilty with regard to the entire law (cf. Jas 2:8-11); even if he perseveres in faith, he loses “sanctifying grace”, “charity” and “eternal happiness”.114 As the Council of Trent teaches, “the grace of justification once received is lost not only by apostasy, by which faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin”.115

"For mortal sin exists also when a person knowingly and willingly, for whatever reason, chooses something gravely disordered. In fact, such a choice already includes contempt for the divine law, a rejection of God’s love for humanity and the whole of creation: the person turns away from God and loses charity. Consequently, *the fundamental orientation can be radically changed by particular acts. *

I think this great encyclical answers many of these moral questions.

 

[jburgherr]

Yes, that’s what I’ve been taught. So it’s probably better not to tell young people of the gravity of masturbation since probably most of them will do it and might die in a car wreck right after doing it. If they don’t know it’s a sin then they are off the hook. Maybe thats why they don’t mention it in Catechism classes?

You are called to call Evil…Evil and Sin…Sin. Ignorance is not bliss. You are your brother’s keeper. You will be called into account for not helping your brothers and sisters understand the wages of sin. This should definately be discussed in Catechism class!

 

[epower]

Yes, Just read the story of Onan in the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan

 

[trogiah]

…, as in one must face their own sin of presumming condemnation and their own lack of extending God’s mercy.

Isn’t that what people are doing when they assume people are going to hell for various sins, sexual or otherwise.

However, this is not the only criteria and basis in which souls face the justice and consequence of God, even to the point of self-condemnation. Yours is a gross over simplification and distortion of the reality of God’s justice and mercy. One is condemned if they gradually over time or in a single act sever their saving [sanctifying grace] relationship with God.

Perhaps you can give me an example of how a person severs that relationship.

Here are examples of condemnation before the justice of God in which none of your sole criteria for consigning one’s soul to eternal damnation and torment is evidenced:

I think that they do. Though it isn’t always obvious.

“Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, **but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven**. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” Matthew 7:21-23

This actually says very little about exactly why a person is denied entrance to heaven. It only emphasises (sp?) that a person doesn’t get there because they claim to put their faith in God. They must actually put their faith in God. "Doing the will of the Father " is not clearly explained in this passage.

“He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' But his master answered him, You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’” Matthew 25: 24-30

I would say this is in agreement with what I originally suggested. The man with one talent had his own words, his own way of looking at the world, thrown back at him. He was condemned based on how he looked at the world and how he failed to live up to his own view of the world.

“Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25: 41-46

I think this is the truly important quote. The Son of Man acknowledges that those who refuse to help a person in need are condemned, but not by the Son of Man.

Consider that there is a very fundamental instinct that gives people the impulse to help people in need. A child who grows up with basic needs met and a loving home is very likely, when walking past a hungry beggar on the street, to feel an inclination to offer help. A parent will often be the one to say, “He’ll probably just use money to by drugs… He should go out and get a real job… It’s the principle of the thing.” And so the beggar is refused help.

What principle. It is never God’s principle that we should refuse help to someone who asks. If we refuse to help someone in need because of some “principle”, it is by that principle that we will be condemned.
(continued)
Jim

 

[trogiah]

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1Corinthian 6: 9-10

“Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.” Galatians 6: 7-8

Those who make a life style of the pursuit of pleasure or wealth inevitably make that life style the standard by which they judge the world or hold others in contempt. And so they may incur judgement based on their own view of the world. When the rich man loses his weatlh, if it had been acquired by devotion to the collection of wealth, he will experience the wrath of his own god.

But for those who repent of their mistaken ways:
(From a conversation with Religious leaders of his time.)

What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went. The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go. Which of the two did his father’s will?" They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.

Forgiveness is available to all who accept the idea of forgiveness. And it is denied those who reject the idea. Yes it does require a person to recognize the error of their ways. But regardless of how far a person has come in living a holy life, they only risk eternal judgement if their sinful life has become the standard by which they judge the world.
(continued)
Jim

 

[trogiah]

Consider the following additional scripture passages:
In John’s gospel, chapter 5, Jesus is discussing matters with the religious leaders of his day
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.”
He often warns them of the impending condemnation they will face but not because of Him(Jesus)

“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope.”
The Pharisees based their lives on a legalistic - and unforgiving - view of the Law of Moses and how it should guide their lives. That is the principle by which they would be condemned because they failed to realize that the Law of Moses was meant to lead them to God and not to be their God.

I realize this has taken us quite some distance from masturbation and contraception but it all has to do with what really results in condemnation to Hell so I think it is not totally off topic.

Peace

Jim

 

[fix]

But regardless of how far a person has come in living a holy life, they only risk eternal judgement if their sinful life has become the standard by which they judge the world.
(continued)
Jim

How do you reconcile this with what is in post #48?

 

[Black_Jaque]

Sailboat,

I know what you mean. Sometimes it’s difficult to understand how a sin that is seemingly harmless warrant eternal damnation.

However, it has helped me to look at things the other way around by asking the following question:

“Are you worthy of Heaven if you use birth control?”

If you do the mental gymnastics on this question it may shed some light on things. Basically, you can’t walk in the operating room with a big ol’ turd in your hands. You either have to leave it behind, or stay out.

And, at the end of time, if you’re not in Heaven, your in Hell.

 

[trogiah]

How do you reconcile this with what is in post #48?

I clicked on your link to Veritatis splendor and read some of it. I am afraid I haven’t made it through the whole thing. I thought the first part, especially the discussion of the rich young man, was very worth reading.

I read the quotes you posted and the area around them and found that part a little hard to follow but I think that the key idea here is the difference between mortal and venial sin.

People seek God and try to live good lives but often succomb to desires and passions. I continue to believe that such people will have some temporal consequences for the times they fail but don’t necessarily incur eternal condemnation for these errors.

If a person gives in to their passions with complete abandonment and make the satisfaction of those desires their only pursuit - like the men who came to Abraham to demand that Abraham hand over his guests so that they could gratify themselves with them- are the ones who risk real condemnation.

I think the quote you posted “For mortal sin exists also when a person knowingly and willingly, for whatever reason, chooses something gravely disordered. In fact, such a choice already includes contempt for the divine law, a rejection of God’s love for humanity and the whole of creation: the person turns away from God and loses charity.”

is referring to people like that. Such people had only contempt and condemnation for people that don’t agree to meet their wants and those are the people that face far worse consequences then those who repeatedly fail to live holy lives but keep trying to improve.

Jim

 

[Sailboat]

I clicked on your link to Veritatis splendor and read some of it. I am afraid I haven’t made it through the whole thing. I thought the first part, especially the discussion of the rich young man, was very worth reading.

I read the quotes you posted and the area around them and found that part a little hard to follow but I think that the key idea here is the difference between mortal and venial sin.

People seek God and try to live good lives but often succomb to desires and passions. I continue to believe that such people will have some temporal consequences for the times they fail but don’t necessarily incur eternal condemnation for these errors.

If a person gives in to their passions with complete abandonment and make the satisfaction of those desires their only pursuit - like the men who came to Abraham to demand that Abraham hand over his guests so that they could gratify themselves with them- are the ones who risk real condemnation.

I think the quote you posted “For mortal sin exists also when a person knowingly and willingly, for whatever reason, chooses something gravely disordered. In fact, such a choice already includes contempt for the divine law, a rejection of God’s love for humanity and the whole of creation: the person turns away from God and loses charity.”

is referring to people like that. Such people had only contempt and condemnation for people that don’t agree to meet their wants and those are the people that face far worse consequences then those who repeatedly fail to live holy lives but keep trying to improve.

Jim

You are so much smarter and more articulate than me. I totally agree with what you’re saying, it makes the most sense to me. The other point of view doesn’t make any sense for God have a system where people end up in Hell for giving in to compelling physical urges that affect so many people.

 

[jmcrae]

You are so much smarter and more articulate than me. I totally agree with what you’re saying, it makes the most sense to me. The other point of view doesn’t make any sense for God have a system where people end up in Hell for giving in to compelling physical urges that affect so many people.

Mortal sin requires “full consent of the will” - in the case of someone who is overcome or who is not fully conscious when they are doing it (because of addiction), it is a venial sin.

The Confessional is a powerful weapon for reducing the temptation, so I would strongly advise anyone to make good use of the Confessional, even in cases where it would be a venial sin.

Also, it’s important to keep in mind that we are responsible for those things that become addictions in our lives - you can’t become addicted to something without beginning with at least a certain amount of deliberate repetition, in the beginning. We need to be honest with ourselves, and realize that even youthful stupidity could have been conscious and wilfull youthful stupidity.

 

[trogiah]

Yes, Just read the story of Onan in the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan

That story does not support your answer to the question. Onan engages in actions that I guess do count as either birth control or masturbation or both - though his greatest crime, the denial of children for his brother, might be the reason he is punished. In any case, his sentence is death which, as severe as that is, is not the same thing as eternal damnation.

The article in wikipedia pointed out a verse that may have some bearing on this discussion, although I am not usually one to go looking for obscure verses in Leviticus for enormously significant ideas.

In any event Leviticus chapter 15 verse 16 says this:

“When a man has an emission of seed, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until evening.” The context suggests that this “emission” did not occur in the act of intercourse

This verse implies that on at least one level the failure to complete intercourse appropriately is a cause of minor concern but, again, being unclean until evening does not seem as bad as eternal damnation.

Jim

 

[trogiah]

You are so much smarter and more articulate than me. I totally agree with what you’re saying, it makes the most sense to me. The other point of view doesn’t make any sense for God have a system where people end up in Hell for giving in to compelling physical urges that affect so many people.

Thank you
You are too kind.

Other posters have made good points and I think all those who advocate the practice of sexual self-control are right to do so.

From the start I took this thread to be more about the true reasons one experiences hell rather than the consequences of lack of sexual self-control

Jim