Do people really go to Hell for masturbation and using birth control?

[Sailboat]

Thank you
You are too kind.

Other posters have made good points and I think all those who advocate the practice of sexual self-control are right to do so.

From the start I took this thread to be more about the true reasons one experiences hell rather than the consequences of lack of sexual self-control

Jim

I’m not sure. I think I meant to ask if people who masturbate and birth control really end up in Hell for doing so, since these are officially mortal sins in the eyes of the Church. The Catechism give 3 criteria that must be met for a mortal sin to truly separate one from God for eternity.

I think most people have their free will impaired when it comes to sexual sin, since our sexual natures are so hardwire into us, and the passion of sexual desire takes away our free will so readily.

I think that the Church is trying to push us towards greater self-mastery over our carnal or lower natures and help awaken our higher natures so we can seek the heavenly kingdom which will not include the animal part of our natures. Also, following God’s commandments leads to more ordered lives, and contributes to the communal social order as well.

I think the Church as softened it’s stance as humanity has collectively matured in education and understanding.

 

[Sailboat]

That story does not support your answer to the question. Onan engages in actions that I guess do count as either birth control or masturbation or both - though his greatest crime, the denial of children for his brother, might be the reason he is punished. In any case, his sentence is death which, as severe as that is, is not the same thing as eternal damnation.

The article in wikipedia pointed out a verse that may have some bearing on this discussion, although I am not usually one to go looking for obscure verses in Leviticus for enormously significant ideas.

In any event Leviticus chapter 15 verse 16 says this:

“When a man has an emission of seed, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until evening.” The context suggests that this “emission” did not occur in the act of intercourse

This verse implies that on at least one level the failure to complete intercourse appropriately is a cause of minor concern but, again, being unclean until evening does not seem as bad as eternal damnation.

Jim

Somehow, this story seems to me to be part of Jewish tribal superstition that doesn’t apply to today. In my opinion, humanity was at that point of time just beginning to have an emerging understanding of the biological contribution of the male to the creation of new life, and had a deep reverance for it’s mystery. They most likely thought, as many more primative societies did, that within the male seed was contained the baby, which he implanted into the woman. They didn’t understand about sperm and eggs, DNA, etc… We didn’t know that until the microscope was invented.

The Jews had many ancient rituals and laws that were tribal in nature and based on a more primative understanding of the physical universe. Some of them were based in folklore superstitions, in my opinion. If you read Leviticus you will see that their society was rather apalling by our standards, stoning people to death for what we would consider small infractions.

 

[Princess_Abby]

I’m not sure. I think I meant to ask if people who masturbate and birth control really end up in Hell for doing so, since these are officially mortal sins in the eyes of the Church. The Catechism give 3 criteria that must be met for a mortal sin to truly separate one from God for eternity.

I think most people have their free will impaired when it comes to sexual sin, since our sexual natures are so hardwire into us, and the passion of sexual desire takes away our free will so readily.

I think that the Church is trying to push us towards greater self-mastery over our carnal or lower natures and help awaken our higher natures so we can seek the heavenly kingdom which will not include the animal part of our natures. Also, following God’s commandments leads to more ordered lives, and contributes to the communal social order as well.

I think the Church as softened it’s stance as humanity has collectively matured in education and understanding.

I’m joining this discussion rather late, but I just wanted to maybe clarify something for you that helped me in contemplating this.

The Catechism states that these two issues are GRAVE MATTER, which is only one third of what comprises a mortal sin. The individual also has to have full knowledge and the will to do so anyway.

So, while so many Catholics or whomever you are concerned about participate in using artificial birth control–despite what some may argue, I do not believe that every Catholic is well-versed in what or why the Church teaches concerning this issue. While the objective use of articial birth control remains grave matter, the culpability of these individuals will forever remain up to God as we cannot begin to judge the heart or intentions of anyone other then ourselves.

As for masturbation, the above also applies but it should be noted that the Church provides for habit. Masturbation is grave matter but it is not mortally sinful if one’s will is impaired. The compulsion to masturbate is often there during a young man’s youth (or young woman, i’m not excluding but it’s generally a more seemingly unbearable urge for a man) and the habit becomes ingrained and it’s all the more difficult to stop. This is an impediment to one’s will and would impede the act from being mortally sinful. That said, the penitent would have the obligation once knowing that masturbation is grave matter to seek help for the addiction from a spiritual director or frequent confession, etc.

The Church has not relaxed her stance on anything having to do with faith or morals. The Church has grown in its wisdom for the last 2000 years, expounding upon the truths which Christ set forth for us in much the same way a child grows in more awareness as she matures. This means that we can’t rationalize away birth control or masturbation as being anything but extremely serious. However, we can understand the extenuating circumstances that might prevent these sins from being mortally sinful in many cases.

 

[fix]

People seek God and try to live good lives but often succomb to desires and passions. I continue to believe that such people will have some temporal consequences for the times they fail but don’t necessarily incur eternal condemnation for these errors…

If a person gives in to their passions with complete abandonment and make the satisfaction of those desires their only pursuit - like the men who came to Abraham to demand that Abraham hand over his guests so that they could gratify themselves with them- are the ones who risk real condemnation.

I think the quote you posted “For mortal sin exists also when a person knowingly and willingly, for whatever reason, chooses something gravely disordered. In fact, such a choice already includes contempt for the divine law, a rejection of God’s love for humanity and the whole of creation: the person turns away from God and loses charity.”

is referring to people like that. Such people had only contempt and condemnation for people that don’t agree to meet their wants and those are the people that face far worse consequences then those who repeatedly fail to live holy lives but keep trying to improve.

If I am reading your correctly it seems your position is very much like the “fundamental option” theory where particular acts are not as important as an overall choice for or against God?

Here VP says:

…Judgments about morality cannot be made without taking into consideration whether or not the deliberate choice of a specific kind of behaviour is in conformity with the dignity and integral vocation of the human person. Every choice always implies a reference by the deliberate will to the goods and evils indicated by the natural law as goods to be pursued and evils to be avoided…

In point of fact, man does not suffer perdition only by being unfaithful to that fundamental option whereby he has made “a free self-commitment to God”.113 With every freely committed mortal sin, he offends God as the giver of the law and as a result becomes guilty with regard to the entire law (cf. Jas 2:8-11); even if he perseveres in faith, he loses “sanctifying grace”, “charity” and “eternal happiness”.114 As the Council of Trent teaches, “the grace of justification once received is lost not only by apostasy, by which faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin”.115…

 

[fix]

Mortal sin requires “full consent of the will” - in the case of someone who is overcome or who is not fully conscious when they are doing it (because of addiction), it is a venial sin.

The Confessional is a powerful weapon for reducing the temptation, so I would strongly advise anyone to make good use of the Confessional, even in cases where it would be a venial sin.

Also, it’s important to keep in mind that we are responsible for those things that become addictions in our lives - you can’t become addicted to something without beginning with at least a certain amount of deliberate repetition, in the beginning. We need to be honest with ourselves, and realize that even youthful stupidity could have been conscious and wilfull youthful stupidity.

Right, what you state here is often overlooked.

 

[fix]

I think most people have their free will impaired when it comes to sexual sin, since our sexual natures are so hardwire into us, and the passion of sexual desire takes away our free will so readily.

What proof do you have of this? Human nature is fallen, but that does not mean we do not have free will and the ability to say yes grace.

I think it is dangerous to chalk up serious sin simply to the idea one cannot help themselves. In fact, a good example is in reference to homosexual actions.

This is from Cardinal Ratzinger:

… In fact, circumstances may exist, or may have existed in the past, which would reduce or remove the culpability of the individual in a given instance; or other circumstances may increase it. What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God’s liberating grace…vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

I think this can apply equally to heterosexual sins like contraception and masturbation.

 

[fix]

So, while so many Catholics or whomever you are concerned about participate in using artificial birth control–despite what some may argue, I do not believe that every Catholic is well-versed in what or why the Church teaches concerning this issue. While the objective use of articial birth control remains grave matter, the culpability of these individuals will forever remain up to God as we cannot begin to judge the heart or intentions of anyone other then ourselves.

I agree with most of your post, but I want to add.

We can never judge anyone’s culpability before God, but the concept of ignorance should be propelry understood.

We all, particularly Catholics, have a serious obligation to properly form our consciences.

Here the CCC states:

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[setter]

Isn’t that what people are doing when they assume people are going to hell for various sins, sexual or otherwise.

No one should be assuming what only God knows. You know what they say when one assumes …

Perhaps you can give me an example of how a person severs that relationship.

I actually cannot, because severity of sin consequence is a personal matter, though actions can be judged as objectively sinful or not, whether venial or serious/grave sin.

This actually says very little about exactly why a person is denied entrance to heaven. It only emphasises (sp?) that a person doesn’t get there because they claim to put their faith in God. They must actually put their faith in God. "Doing the will of the Father " is not clearly explained in this passage.

These religious folks were left outside the kingdom of God because in a fundamental way they lacked the grace to be saved.

"So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.” John 6: 28-29

I would say this is in agreement with what I originally suggested. The man with one talent had his own words, his own way of looking at the world, thrown back at him. He was condemned based on how he looked at the world and how he failed to live up to his own view of the world.

It really does not matter what the the world view of this “worthless servant” was, it was by God’s standard that he was judged to be thoroughly unworthy of the kingdom on God. Also, by “servant”, it is directly implied that this individual knew full well what God’s view was and what was expected of him by God the master - “But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?”.

I think this is the truly important quote. The Son of Man acknowledges that those who refuse to help a person in need are condemned, but not by the Son of Man.

This person was condemned by the absolute standard of God, by a reality reflection and contrast of self by God’s standard. The judgment by God’s standard comes from God, while standing in judgment for sin can come from anyone who gives testimony to God’s standard.

"The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. …and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. …and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.” John 5: 22, 24, 27, 29-30

“Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.” John 8: 16

Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” John 9: 39

 

[setter]

Those who make a life style of the pursuit of pleasure or wealth inevitably make that life style the standard by which they judge the world or hold others in contempt. And so they may incur judgement based on their own view of the world. When the rich man loses his weatlh, if it had been acquired by devotion to the collection of wealth, he will experience the wrath of his own god.

But for those who repent of their mistaken ways:
(From a conversation with Religious leaders of his time.)

What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went. The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go. Which of the two did his father’s will?" They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.

Forgiveness is available to all who accept the idea of forgiveness. And it is denied those who reject the idea. Yes it does require a person to recognize the error of their ways. But regardless of how far a person has come in living a holy life, they only risk eternal judgement if their sinful life has become the standard by which they judge the world.
(continued)
Jim

I am not sure why all this emphasis on the importance of one’s own personal perspective and world view in final judgment. The only standard that we are judged by is God’s standard, and how each individual has embraced or deviated from God’s absolute standard via a personal faith relationship.

One would imply from your reasoning that each individual sets the absolute standard by which they are judged, when in fact, it is all about uncharitable deviation from God’s absolute standard for faith and morals. Your emphasis is more a feature to understanding how God’s absolute judgment is rendered, rather than the end all of how each individual is judged as you erroneously imply.

“For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So each of us shall give account of himself to God.” **Romans 14: 10-12 **

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” 2 Cor. 5: 10

 

[minkymurph]

I believe masturbation is a sin because it falls short of the ideal, sexual union between man and woman out of love, but like every other sin it can be forgiven. Putting the question of sin and hell to one side for a moment, is it not incredible sad to have sex with yourself? I haven’t been a Catholic very long. I don’t think I could confess to masturbation because I would be mortified!

 

[jmcrae]

I haven’t been a Catholic very long. I don’t think I could confess to masturbation because I would be mortified!

Which is precisely why frequent Confession is the most rapid way to break this bad habit.

 

[Elizabeth_B]

Sailboat,
However, it has helped me to look at things the other way around by asking the following question:

“Are you worthy of Heaven if you use birth control?”

If you do the mental gymnastics on this question it may shed some light on things. Basically, you can’t walk in the operating room with a big ol’ turd in your hands. You either have to leave it behind, or stay out.

And, at the end of time, if you’re not in Heaven, your in Hell.

Another angle: Am I willing to forego heaven for a few brief moments of physical pleasure?

 

[setter]

Another angle: Am I willing to forego heaven for a few brief moments of physical pleasure?

St. Paul seemed to have this in mind when he instructed the believers to not dismiss or neglect responding to the discipline of the Lord:

“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;** that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.** For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.” Hebrews 12: 14-17

 

[trogiah]

I am not sure why all this emphasis on the importance of one’s own personal perspective and world view in final judgment. The only standard that we are judged by is God’s standard, and how each individual has embraced or deviated from God’s absolute standard via a personal faith relationship.

One would imply from your reasoning that each individual sets the absolute standard by which they are judged, when in fact, it is all about uncharitable deviation from God’s absolute standard for faith and morals. Your emphasis is more a feature to understanding how God’s absolute judgment is rendered, rather than the end all of how each individual is judged as you erroneously imply.

“For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So each of us shall give account of himself to God.” **Romans 14: 10-12 **

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” 2 Cor. 5: 10

“If you forgive the faults of others, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours. If you do not forgive otheres, neither will your Father forgive you.” Matthew 6: 14-15

If you want to avoid judgemment, stop passing judgment. Your verdict on others will be the verdict passed on you. The measure with which you measure will be used to measure you." Matthew 7: 1-2

(Read the parable of the merciless official Matthew 18: 21-35) and then “My heavenly Father will treat you in exactly the same way unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart”

It seems that God (not me) is implying that each individual is setting the standard by which they are judged.

I feel compelled to add that the reason we should avoid many of the actions that God commands us to avoid is not so that we can
avoid condemnation in a later life. Many actions we are commanded to avoid are things that will make this life much more difficult for us. Or to put it another way, avoiding hell after we die is not the only reason to keep God’s commandments.

Jim

 

[setter]

“If you forgive the faults of others, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours. If you do not forgive otheres, neither will your Father forgive you.” Matthew 6: 14-15

If you want to avoid judgemment, stop passing judgment. Your verdict on others will be the verdict passed on you. The measure with which you measure will be used to measure you." Matthew 7: 1-2

(Read the parable of the merciless official Matthew 18: 21-35) and then “My heavenly Father will treat you in exactly the same way unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart”

It seems that God (not me) is implying that each individual is setting the standard by which they are judged.

Could it be as simple that unforgiveness and being judgmental of others are acts against charity; and that Jesus is forwarning others that there is a repercussion for sin, and in the case of unforgiveness and judgmentalism it is in direct proportion to the offense committed?

Again, man does not establish or set the standard for God’s justice. The standard remains the same–God’s perfect justice based on the immutable and absolute truth of His love.

I feel compelled to add that the reason we should avoid many of the actions that God commands us to avoid is not so that we can avoid condemnation in a later life. Many actions we are commanded to avoid are things that will make this life much more difficult for us. Or to put it another way, avoiding hell after we die is not the only reason to keep God’s commandments.

Jim

True. I would also add, that as one grows in their knowledge and love of God, i.e., intimacy and friendship with God, sin becomes a mutual offense. Likewise, greater growth in spiritual maturity puts the focus more on wanting to love, praise, and serve God more singulary and fully, which is the opposite of choosing to sin. This is why the saints were disturbed over even the most venial of sin.

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.” 1 John 4: 18

 

[patches]

Regarding mortal sin, it’s hard to fathom that in the absence of timely reception of the Sacrament of reconciliation, a single unconfessed, (though serious) breach of one of God’s commandments will lead one irrevocably to spiritual ruin. That seems a bit incongruous with the infinite mercy of God— Can one serious misstep in an otherwise virtuous life cause one to lose their salvation forever?

 I'm not sure how sound my theology is here, but it seems to me that *episodic* steps into sin, even serious ones, are mortal primarily in the sense that they will put us on a road to hell if we continue in that direction.  All sin places us on a path that leads away from God, and it's easy to understand how habitual serious sin eventually cuts us off completely from our ability hear God's voice and respond to it. Most of us are bound to fail repeatedly and sometimes seriously, but isn't what really matters "fighting the good fight" ---the determination we have to get back on the path that leads through the "narrow gate?"  It stands to reason that over time the dedicated believer will find sin increasingly more repugnant in the light of God's truth.  It just doesn't make sense that when we meet our demise, our eternal destiny will be instantly determined by the "luck of the draw" in our cycle of sin and repentence.

I’m not trying to diminish how important it is for us to reject sin of all kinds, and to strive to maintain a healthy conscience. Certainly God’s will must always be supreme in our lives, and the sacrament of Reconciliation is a vital gift to restore God’s proper place in our lives.
But I do find the "Divine Accountant" approach,-- that a scorecard of some kind is kept by God--inadequate to address the reality of sin and repentence. *(i.e. tough luck if death should wind up being the ultimate "gotcha" when a bus hits you on the way to confession)*,;) I think this kind of formulation of the nature of sin paints us into an awkward theological corner of sorts in an in an attempt to understand the mystery of God's perfect mercy and justice. Maybe it has something to do with our inability to grasp God's being beyond the limitation of time. Ultimately, I suppose balancing mercy and justice is best left in God's hands, and maybe I should focus my efforts toward avoiding sin, confessing when I fail, and trusting in God. Oh, and then there *is* that "do not judge" thing....

 

[fix]

Regarding mortal sin, it’s hard to fathom that in the absence of timely reception of the Sacrament of reconciliation, a single unconfessed, (though serious) breach of one of God’s commandments will lead one irrevocably to spiritual ruin. That seems a bit incongruous with the infinite mercy of God— Can one serious misstep in an otherwise virtuous life cause one to lose their salvation forever?

Please see post #64.

I’m not sure how sound my theology is here, but it seems to me that episodic steps into sin, even serious ones, are mortal primarily in the sense that they will put us on a road to hell if we continue in that direction. All sin places us on a path that leads away from God, and it’s easy to understand how habitual serious sin eventually cuts us off completely from our ability hear God’s voice and respond to it. Most of us are bound to fail repeatedly and sometimes seriously, but isn’t what really matters “fighting the good fight” —the determination we have to get back on the path that leads through the “narrow gate?” It stands to reason that over time the dedicated believer will find sin increasingly more repugnant in the light of God’s truth. It just doesn’t make sense that when we meet our demise, our eternal destiny will be instantly determined by the “luck of the draw” in our cycle of sin and repentence.

But it is not luck. We make the deliberate choice to sin. That is a point we often miss. Sin is not something that just happens. We choose to do it.

But I do find the “Divine Accountant” approach,-- that a scorecard of some kind is kept by God–inadequate to address the reality of sin and repentence. (i.e. tough luck if death should wind up being the ultimate “gotcha” when a bus hits you on the way to confession),

He is not an accountant, but we ought not think we can live as we want without always acting from the standpoint of eternity. We do not know when death will call.

 

[patches]

Please see post #64.

But it is not luck. We make the deliberate choice to sin. That is a point we often miss. Sin is not something that just happens. We choose to do it.

He is not an accountant, but we ought not think we can live as we want without always acting from the standpoint of eternity. We do not know when death will call.

I agree totally with your assertion that sin has nothing to do with luck, and is freely chosen. I was trying to point out that, if a person is 99.9 percent virtuous, (which is also not luck) and he happens to step in front of a bus before repenting of an individual act occurring in the .1 percent that is not, some understandings of sin would assume that person to be automatically among the damned, having “run out of time” at an particularly inopportune moment. This “celestial egg timer” model strikes me as emphasizing God’s justice without adequately giving His mercy it’s due, and I was merely suggesting that this particular understanding might be somewhat lacking in that area.

You could certainly make the case that, if we are in a state of grace, then living “as we want” would also be living as God wants, and we wouldn’t run the risk of dying in mortal sin in the first place. If this is your point, I totally agree. Unfortunately, though that is certainly the goal, it is too often not the reality.

I also agree that we should always be ready, not knowing the hour of our death, and ideally always have oil ready for our lamps. Now if we can just convince Satan to leave us alone…

 

[Sandi]

As is true in so many situations, only God knows and only He can be the judge.

 

[fix]

I agree totally with your assertion that sin has nothing to do with luck, and is freely chosen. I was trying to point out that, if a person is 99.9 percent virtuous, (which is also not luck) and he happens to step in front of a bus before repenting of an individual act occurring in the .1 percent that is not, some understandings of sin would assume that person to be automatically among the damned, having “run out of time” at an particularly inopportune moment. This “celestial egg timer” model strikes me as emphasizing God’s justice without adequately giving His mercy it’s due, and I was merely suggesting that this particular understanding might be somewhat lacking in that area.

You could certainly make the case that, if we are in a state of grace, then living “as we want” would also be living as God wants, and we wouldn’t run the risk of dying in mortal sin in the first place. If this is your point, I totally agree. Unfortunately, though that is certainly the goal, it is too often not the reality.

I also agree that we should always be ready, not knowing the hour of our death, and ideally always have oil ready for our lamps. Now if we can just convince Satan to leave us alone…

I have often heard we die as we live. I think that is mostly true. The position you are trying to get across is a common one. I see your point, but I think it is mistaken. One mortal sin is enough to merit hell no matter how good we may have lived before we did it. That one sin is freely chosen and freely rejecting God. It is no small matter. That is what we are missing here.

It is all a choice and I think it is a fair choice. Not easy, but fair.