A
AndyF
Guest
setter:
In order to have me assist you further, you will need to answer the questions specifically.
Andy
In order to have me assist you further, you will need to answer the questions specifically.
Andy
Do people really go to Hell for masturbation and using birth control?
- Status
F
fix
Guest
It seems you are confusing the issue by attempting to draw in Protestant theology and notions of scrupulosity. I made it clear from the first post the subject did not resist temptation and gave in to it.
This has nothing to do with the example I gave. Lust is a captial sin whether it is physical or not. Adultery in the heart is a captial sin whether it is physical or not. Entertaining impure thoughts is an objective mortal sin. I never said the example was a mere fleeting thought that one rejected.
Again, you are trying to drag in scrupulosity and Prostestant theology in an attempt to chage the direction of the example. The man in the example committed a grave sin. Point is one can lose salvation through one mortal sin no matter what came before. To deny this is to deny Catholic teaching.
As for thoughts and actions that too is not part of the discussion. We are not discussing whether adultery in the heart is equal to adultery in the flesh. We are discussing if adultery in the heart can be mortal.
This has nothing to do with the example I gave.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
Yes, and God has gone to great lengths to be sure each individual knows what it is He wants from them. That’s just it.
People who say “it’s between me and God” really mean it’s between me and my conscience (which they equate with God talking to them), as if one’s conscience contains all the Truth God wishes to reveal to that individual. So as long as one’s ‘conscience’ is clear they believe they are conforming to God’s will and everything’s honky-dorey with one’s actions.
Scripture definitely charges each believer in Christ to make the effort to heed the teachings of the apostles…to recognize that God came to earth as Jesus so that we may know His will.
So, yeah, follow your conscience - but form that conscience on God’s Word (Jesus Christ). He is talking to you, and there are so many passages in scripture to support the moral teachings of the Church that even if you reject the majesterium of the Catholic Church you’d be hard-pressed to reject the Written Word.
You can’t confidently claim to **know **that God is happy with your decisions in life if you don’t take the time to open the Book to read His messages to you, and certainly can’t have a clear conscience if you do read the Book yet decide to do what feels right to you because your human limited mind rationalizes somehow that your errant behaviors are actually conforming to God’s will.
Most people I’ve come across who rely on that ‘between God and me’ philosophy have not even read the Bible. They base their understanding of Church teaching on what they hear or what they read from sources not affiliated with the Magesterium.
M
marybee
Guest
I believe masturbation is wrong because it stems from lust. but-
Did anyone read the Catechism (Im sure you have) and did you notice that it is less wrong for someone who is under stress or if it habituated. Does anyone find it a cooincidence that this is a male sin?
I mean can you imagine if the catechism said that contraception is wrong but it is less wrong if the woman would die during pregnancy or if the family could not afford more children?
does anyone else find a little hypocrisy here? You know it was written by a bunch of male theologians!
Did anyone read the Catechism (Im sure you have) and did you notice that it is less wrong for someone who is under stress or if it habituated. Does anyone find it a cooincidence that this is a male sin?
I mean can you imagine if the catechism said that contraception is wrong but it is less wrong if the woman would die during pregnancy or if the family could not afford more children?
does anyone else find a little hypocrisy here? You know it was written by a bunch of male theologians!
P
patches
Guest
This thread has been excellent in exposing “where the rubber hits the road” regarding living the Catholic Christian life, because it zeros in on the precise reason our church is different that all others, Authority.
If you really accept Jesus’ giving authority to the church to loose and bind, then appeals to one’s subjective opinion, (sometimes rationalized into being termed personal “conscience,”) must take a back seat to authentic church teaching on any area toward which she has spoken. In these very difficult days, when relativism has a stranglehold on the popular mind, one is facing a very powerful head wind when asserting that church teaching must play THE central role in the formation of our conscience and moral life. By virtue of a this authority, we are often faced with a need to accept a parental “because I said so,” in the absence of our complete understanding and because of flawed human logic, and that is a VERY hard thing to do in current times.
Still, those of us who embrace the Catholic faith are challenged to present the truth* in love*, and however tempting it is to take a “read 'em and weep” approach to moral law, we also need to have one eye on the application of mercy and understanding (without compromising the truth). Seems to me it’s a perennial balancing act, and one that requires a lifetime dedication to know the mind of Christ.
If you really accept Jesus’ giving authority to the church to loose and bind, then appeals to one’s subjective opinion, (sometimes rationalized into being termed personal “conscience,”) must take a back seat to authentic church teaching on any area toward which she has spoken. In these very difficult days, when relativism has a stranglehold on the popular mind, one is facing a very powerful head wind when asserting that church teaching must play THE central role in the formation of our conscience and moral life. By virtue of a this authority, we are often faced with a need to accept a parental “because I said so,” in the absence of our complete understanding and because of flawed human logic, and that is a VERY hard thing to do in current times.
Still, those of us who embrace the Catholic faith are challenged to present the truth* in love*, and however tempting it is to take a “read 'em and weep” approach to moral law, we also need to have one eye on the application of mercy and understanding (without compromising the truth). Seems to me it’s a perennial balancing act, and one that requires a lifetime dedication to know the mind of Christ.
S
setter
Guest
Your posts are hard to follow. Are you saying that as Catholics we do not necessarily need to reference the same criteria and foundation (sacred Written and Oral Tradition) for what is right and wrong in matters of faith and morals? Your “presumption” implies moral relativism as an acceptable option for those who would cloak themselves in the label of Catholic.
I cited parapgaphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church pertinent to your assertion (and admitted presumption) of illicit use of ABC (“how that can occur”) as a means to the proposed good end (“benefits for the common good”) as the contorted basis and prescription for justifying recourse to choosing an objective evil. Your place as a faithful Catholic is to point out, label and give no passive concession or endorsement to choosing an evil and incurring the “stain” of grave (if not mortal) sin. This is my “objection” to your argument and “the stain” that needs to be removed from your argument whatever the cost to one’s comfort or preference for the eternal welfare of one’s soul.
Perhaps take some time to reflect upon this obvious oversight and/or error in your “argument”, as it has specific repercussions for the one promoting or living in error, especially consciously choosen sin (“error”).
S
setter
Guest
Please better inform yourself.
I am missing the apparent contradiction, can you please elaborate? How does a Catholic become addicted to the technology of ABC? Though I can see how one can get into the acquired habit of wanting sex on demand (facilitated by ABC),but not addicted to the technology of ABC. One must understand that addiction (acquired habit) is always associated with a mood and/or mind altering experience in which the person gradually loses capacity to exercise control, i.e., exerpt self-will.
J
jmcrae
Guest
You’re kidding, right? No, this is not a “male sin.”
M
marybee
Guest
let me clarify, a mostly male sin! that is a fact!
J
jmcrae
Guest
I seriously doubt that.
W
Wendy-Kay
Guest
Why is this to hard for people to accept? Christ founded The Church and STILL speaks and directs The Church through the Holy Spirit. Thus, because God says no! I do not belong to myself. All authority is His. At Mass when we recite the Our Father, it makes me wonder how many people truly mean it when they say, “Thy will be done”.
P
Priscilla_Ann
Guest
S
setter
Guest
Do you think maybe that is why the non-Catholic Chrisitian denominations are in a perpetual crisis of leadership and moral relativism?
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
Who do you believe speaks for God, then?
T
Trelow
Guest
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
P
Priscilla_Ann
Guest
God speaks to every believer through the Holy Spirit. The Catholic church does not have a monopoly on God.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
From the catechism…interesting to note that lustfully masturbating, might be considered the real issue…thought i’d share this with you all.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
J
jmcrae
Guest
If that were so, wouldn’t we all belong to the same Church?
True. But God has a monopoly on the Catholic Church - after all, He founded it.
P
Priscilla_Ann
Guest
If God “founded” the Catholic church, why does the church teach so many things that Jesus and the apostles did not (such as the teachings against masturbation and birth control)? Rather than drawing people to Christ, the Catholic church imposes itself and its manmade rules as obstacles between man and God.If that were so, wouldn’t we all belong to the same Church?
True. But God has a monopoly on the Catholic Church - after all, He founded it.
- Status