Do people really go to Hell for masturbation and using birth control?

[setter]

We need to keep private stories by saints in perspective. First, we must hear them correctly and then we must test them against Church teaching. Our will is set at death. There is no repenting post death. Now, I think it is possible an instant before we die for God to give us a last chance to say yes to Him, but that is not after death.

Jesus spoke repeatidly in the gospels of being prepared to meet the Lord in final judgment. Because no one knows the hour or day of their personal reckoning before God, whether at death or in the parousia. Here is one example:

"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. …Afterward the other [foolish] maidens came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us.' But he replied, Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” Matthew 25: 1-4, 11-13

 

[fix]

Jesus spoke repeatidly in the gospels of being prepared to meet the Lord in final judgment. Because no one knows the hour or day of their personal reckoning before God, whether at death or in the parousia. Here is one example:

"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. …Afterward the other [foolish] maidens came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us.' But he replied, Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” Matthew 25: 1-4, 11-13

I agree. I have read several stories from the lives of the saints about this issue. Like the poster I reponded to I have read things like St. John Vianney was given a vision of a husband of a woman he was consoling. She was worried her husband was in hell because he lead a very sinful life and was killed in an accident when he fell off a horse. The saint said he saw the man fall and just before he hit his head God have him a chance to repent and he did and thus was saved.

Now, is this doctrine? Does it mean we can lead a bad life and presume on God’s mercy to save us? I would not depend on it.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

We need to keep private stories by saints in perspective. First, we must hear them correctly and then we must test them against Church teaching. Our will is set at death. There is no repenting post death. Now, I think it is possible an instant before we die for God to give us a last chance to say yes to Him, but that is not after death.

Hi fix,

It seems like we are really splitting hairs here; this is all academic.

The point that I wanted to make was just that nobody goes to Hell for eternity “by accident”, because they were unlucky enough to die before getting a chance to repent. On that we certainly seem to agree. Whether this “last chance” comes just before, right at, or just after, is really just a detail.

You said it’s a bad idea to think “we can lead a bad life and presume on God’s mercy to save us”. I certainly agree with that! 1st of all, ALL SINS ARE EXPIATED. In this life or the next. There is no free lunch. We can, of course, gain indulgences, but this is still expiation. Every sin must be paid for… so, someone who adopts a ‘repent on my deathbed’ strategy is certainly extra foolish as a Catholic.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[wjp984]

I don’t think God will send us believers to Hell for this sin. First of all, hopefully most if not all of us who committ this sin will eventually stop. Second, despite some poor catechism and confessions most people are sorry for it or at least realize it is wrong. Finally, hypothetically, let us just say that it is God’s policy for people to go to Hell for this sin. I am sent to Hell for this and then realising God is just will not complain and accept my eternity. In fact, I will just continuously pray for the God’s mercy in easing my suffering, refuse to help out in any way with the corrupting of other souls (souls in Hell probably can help the devil attract more souls), and finally, I would just be thankful to God for the life I had even though I screwed up and am now in Hell. I then would also be thankful that God granted me a soul and eternal life, though it be in Hell, and then depsite the lonliness, separation from God, depspair, or what not, I would continously pray for mercy and be thankful for whatever I am given. You know what, I bet if I am to be punished for this sin, it turns out to just be Purgatory after all. However, I don’t plan on committing this sin forever and there is plenty of time to be forgiven and there will be many other sins I proably will have to be worried about as well.

 

[Valke2]

Scylla,
Yes I know God decides, but what do you think? Do you think anyone has gone to Hell for Mastubating? I’m talking about your run of the mill masturbation. Do you think people go to Hell for artificial birth control? I don’t. I think they just need more time in Purgatory. I think Purgatory purges us of our attachment to sins like sins of the flesh.

I think your question highlights the problem of having a God that is all forgiving, contrasted with the concept of eternal damnation.

Good luck.

 

[setter]

I don’t think God will send us believers to Hell for this sin.

First, God does not send anyone to hell for unrepentent mortal sins committed against charity. The person freely chooses to refuse to accept the grace for repentence and conversion and ultimately chooses to send themself to hell for all eternity.

HELL. The place and state of eternal punishment for the fallen angels and human beings who die deliberately estranged from the love of God. There is a twofold punishment in hell: the pain of loss, which consists in the deprivation of the vision of God, and the pain of sense, which consists in the suffering caused by outside material things. The punishment of hell is eternal, as declared by Christ in his prediction of the last day (Matthew 25:46), and as defined by the Fourth Lateran Council, stating that the wicked will “receive a perpetual punishment with the devil” (Denzinger 801). The existence of hell is consistent with divine justice, since God respects human freedom and those who are lost actually condemn themselves by their resistance to the grace of God. therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

First of all, hopefully most if not all of us who committ this sin will eventually stop. Second, despite some poor catechism and confessions most people are sorry for it or at least realize it is wrong. Finally, hypothetically, let us just say that it is God’s policy for people to go to Hell for this sin. I am sent to Hell for this and then realising God is just will not complain and accept my eternity. In fact, I will just continuously pray for the God’s mercy in easing my suffering, refuse to help out in any way with the corrupting of other souls (souls in Hell probably can help the devil attract more souls), and finally, I would just be thankful to God for the life I had even though I screwed up and am now in Hell. I then would also be thankful that God granted me a soul and eternal life, though it be in Hell, and then depsite the lonliness, separation from God, depspair, or what not, I would continously pray for mercy and be thankful for whatever I am given.

First and last of all, souls in hell hate and despise God.

“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state." ~ John Paul II ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

 

[setter]

You know what, I bet if I am to be punished for this sin, it turns out to just be Purgatory after all. However, I don’t plan on committing this sin forever and there is plenty of time to be forgiven and there will be many other sins I proably will have to be worried about as well.

I offer you these CCC paragraphs and scripture citations to reconsider the immediate need and urgency to repent and and believe as today is the day of salvation. There is not guarantee of a tommorrow to get around to repentance for sins of commission or ommission that may damn one’s soul to eternal separation from God. God’s judgment is not a matter of sentiment, but of obedience and love to His absolute standards and agape love sacrifice on the Cross.

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit). (CCC)

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” (CCC)

“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’" Matthew 4: 17

“Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3: 19-20

“You did not so learn Christ! – assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus. Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.” Ephesian 4: 20-24

“Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, ,Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, …As I swore in my wrath, `They shall never enter my rest.’ Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end, while it is said, ‘Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.’" Hebrews 3: 7-8, 12-15

"Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” Romans 2: 3-8

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Romans 11: 22

 

[Valke2]

Why is it wrong? Someone had said that “hopefully, we realize it is wrong.” I understand the prohibtion from a Jewish perspective (although I happen to disagree with the conclusions we draw). Why do Christians believe it is wrong? And I assume we are talking only about male masturbation here?

Is it scriptual or a later ruling?

 

[YinYangMom]

Why is it wrong? Someone had said that “hopefully, we realize it is wrong.” I understand the prohibtion from a Jewish perspective (although I happen to disagree with the conclusions we draw). Why do Christians believe it is wrong? And I assume we are talking only about male masturbation here?

Is it scriptual or a later ruling?

It’s morally wrong. Period.
And no, this includes female masturbation as well.

It goes back to respect for the natural order and the gift of life.

God did not gift us with sexual pleasure for our own gratification.
He gave us the gift so that in the martial embrace from which a couple become co-creators of life with God we would come to know and experience a taste of **HIS **love for us. The pleasure factor is there to remind us of His love for us.

Now when one masturbates it’s not because they’re trying to have sex with God in mind. They’re doing it because they want to experience the high of sensual manipulation for themselves. They are only thinking of themselves and no one else. That is a slap in God’s face.

There are many scriptural references to the respect we are to show our bodies and the respect we give to God in the things we do and fail to do. When you apply the basic ‘respect for life’ passages in light of masturbation being a seflish and self-centered action, the connection becomes clearer as to why it falls under an offense to God. And sin is, basically, an offense to God, it’s not A,B, C and only A,B, C.

 

[AndyF]

Setter:

I’ll wait for answers to my specific questions.

Andy

 

[setter]

Setter:

I’ll wait for answers to my specific questions.

Andy

In all due respect, you need to reread and respond to my post #145 response to you before re-posting this post like a skipping record.

 

[Valke2]

It’s morally wrong. Period.
And no, this includes female masturbation as well.

It goes back to respect for the natural order and the gift of life.

God did not gift us with sexual pleasure for our own gratification.
He gave us the gift so that in the martial embrace from which a couple become co-creators of life with God we would come to know and experience a taste of **HIS **love for us. The pleasure factor is there to remind us of His love for us.

Now when one masturbates it’s not because they’re trying to have sex with God in mind. They’re doing it because they want to experience the high of sensual manipulation for themselves. They are only thinking of themselves and no one else. That is a slap in God’s face.

There are many scriptural references to the respect we are to show our bodies and the respect we give to God in the things we do and fail to do. When you apply the basic ‘respect for life’ passages in light of masturbation being a seflish and self-centered action, the connection becomes clearer as to why it falls under an offense to God. And sin is, basically, an offense to God, it’s not A,B, C and only A,B, C.

I don’t see how it is unnatural. If children do it upon entering puberty, it is probably natural. Sexual pleasure is only to be used for the creation of life? Where in the bible does it say that? ANd how is masturbating showing less respect to one’s body then, say, scratching an itch on the back? Isn’t eating and resting “selfish and self-centered” actions? Or vacationing? Or going for a quiet walk?

How is it a slap in God’s face to think only of yourself once in a while???

 

[Valke2]

If anything, it is a natural act that the Bible seeks to curb through moral choices. ALthough I’m still not sure why it is morally wrong. The orginal verse in the Torah which prohibited the spilling of seed is based on the story of a man who refused to do is duty by his deceased brother’s wife. IN fear that she would bear children that would compete with his children from another wife, he pulled out. And God killed him for it. Not for spilling seed but for failing to fullfill his obligation.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

If anything, it is a natural act that the Bible seeks to curb through moral choices. ALthough I’m still not sure why it is morally wrong. The orginal verse in the Torah which prohibited the spilling of seed is based on the story of a man who refused to do is duty by his deceased brother’s wife. IN fear that she would bear children that would compete with his children from another wife, he pulled out. And God killed him for it. Not for spilling seed but for failing to fullfill his obligation.

Valke, you have well over 300 hundred posts on this site, yet you apparently do not understand the basics of Catholic moral teaching. Why is that? Why don’t you just read what the Catechism says about masturabation?

Nobody who can’t figure out why it is sinful has nurtured their sense of discernment one iota. Sorry to be so harsh. It is a simple matter.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Valke, you have well over 300 hundred posts on this site, yet you apparently do not understand the basics of Catholic moral teaching. Why is that? Why don’t you just read what the Catechism says about masturabation?

Nobody who can’t figure out why it is sinful has nurtured their sense of discernment one iota. Sorry to be so harsh. It is a simple matter.

Paul:

Could you please be a bit more kind in your responses to others? I don’t mean to be harsh either, but some of your responses could be a bit more gentle when making your point.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Paul:

Could you please be a bit more kind in your responses to others? I don’t mean to be harsh either, but some of your responses could be a bit more gentle when making your point.

I don’t believe I was being unkind, either here or earlier. Perhaps I could be less blunt. However, I know exactly where my heart was, and it wasn’t in a spirit of spite.

The fact is that this is a simple issue, especially if one is a professing, serious Catholic (which I realize you are not). One does not need to spend days, months, or years wringing one’s hands in an attempt to figure out “why” masturbation is sinful. It is a matter of conscience and it is also a matter that the Church teaches on very plainly and simply and has always done so.

I realize people are at various positions in their faith journeys and that we are products of the society we live in, which is depraved in regards to sexual morals. We’re all here to help everyone get to Heaven (and avoid expiation in purgatory) and I think I am trying to do that. What I am saying is - get real - you know it’s wrong, or you would if you listened to your conscience. It’s really just as simple as that.

I suppose that’s the last I’ll post on the issue - that’s my point. Thanks for being civil in your response!

Paul

 

[Valke2]

Valke, you have well over 300 hundred posts on this site, yet you apparently do not understand the basics of Catholic moral teaching. Why is that? Why don’t you just read what the Catechism says about masturabation?

Nobody who can’t figure out why it is sinful has nurtured their sense of discernment one iota. Sorry to be so harsh. It is a simple matter.

I don’t find it harsh. I had simply asked, originally, why Catholics considered it a sin. Telling me that I have to figure it out on my own is fine. I’ll answer you in kind. If you can’t figure out why it is not a sin against God to masturbate, then you have not taken a serious look at what it means to act in a moral and ethcial way.

See? Now we both have stated our arguments with an equal amount of explanation.

 

[Valke2]

One does not need to spend days, months, or years wringing one’s hands in an attempt to figure out “why” masturbation is sinful. It is a matter of conscience and it is also a matter that the Church teaches on very plainly and simply and has always done so.
Paul

Ok. But it doesn’t hurt to spend 5 minutes on a chat board discussing it. How is masturbation a matter of conscience??? Being honest in business dealings, not causing harm to others… these things I could see as being a matter of conscious, in that we can generally agree on the moral implications of acting in such a way. The same is not true, obviously for masturbation.

Wouldn’t smoking be at least as great a sin as masturbation, if, as a previous poster suggested, the sin lies in disrespeting life/self?

 

[Valke2]

Not to beat a dead horse (pun intended), but I am reading on wikipedia that some people can only achieve orgasm through masturbation. If this is the case, is it less of a sin for those people then for others?

ALso, I confirmed my suspicion (by reading about it, not observing it) that many mammals in the animal kingdom masturbate. So the argument that it is unnatural shouldn’t hold any weight.

In Judaism, male masturbation is prohibited in the Talmud. It compares it to murder or idolatry. As I said, I don’t agree with our views on this. (There’s a debate on whether it is permissible for procuring semen for artificial insemination).

I understand that Catholicism views it as a sin because the use of “a sexual faculty…outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” (Wikipedia, citing “Persona Humanaeclaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics”, Section IX. Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (December 29, 1975). Retrieved on 8/29/2006.)
Does anyone know if “outside the marriage” means that masturbation is ok if you are married or “outside the marriage” means sexual intercourse with one’s spouse?

 

[setter]

Not to beat a dead horse (pun intended), but I am reading on wikipedia that some people can only achieve orgasm through masturbation. If this is the case, is it less of a sin for those people then for others?

No. Why? Because sin is sin is sin. In the case of masturbation, it is always intrinsically disordered and in itself evil and hence sinful, regardless of circumstances.

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

ALso, I confirmed my suspicion (by reading about it, not observing it) that many mammals in the animal kingdom masturbate. So the argument that it is unnatural shouldn’t hold any weight.

Some animals also attack their weaker siblings and eat the younger and weaker companions. The fact that such abhorrent behavior is :normal’ amongst aniumals does not make it normal for rational and free will human beings made in the image and likeness of God.

I understand that Catholicism views it as a sin because the use of “a sexual faculty…outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” (Wikipedia, citing “Persona Humanaeclaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics”, Section IX. Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (December 29, 1975). Retrieved on 8/29/2006.)
Does anyone know if “outside the marriage” means that masturbation is ok if you are married or “outside the marriage” means sexual intercourse with one’s spouse?

Masturbation (whether solitary or mutual) in a marriage is gravely sinful and disordered behavior because it violates the essential and two fold *unitive *and procreative aspects of conjugal married love.