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long215
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No. Plants and animals are just biological machines, programmed by God, for distinct purposes. They were made by God to maintain balances in the environment and provide food and assistance to humankind.
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Bluegoat
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What do you base this on?
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long215
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Strictly my own opinion. Having watched nature show and owning pets, I see animal behavior as rigid and predictable.
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masterjedi747
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I’m not entirely sure – which is part of the reason why I will be doing my senior thesis next year on investigating this question, or something very closely related to it – but anyway, I’m not sure that what you say here is necessarily in complete contradiction with the Aristotelian/Thomistic teaching that plants and animals have a substantial form (soul)… at the very least, I suspect that there is definitely something true to what you say, or why you say it, even if it would take a good amount of qualification and clarification to hammer out.
I wish I knew where to find the text, but I’m pretty sure Aquinas makes an interesting distinction by saying that, before the general Resurrection, we can properly say that “St. Peter’s soul is in heaven”, but not that “St. Peter is in heaven”. So we would definitely retain our individuality, but perhaps not strictly speaking the fullness of our nature as a human person until the Resurrection. (It’s definitely a very interesting question, at any rate.)
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jln
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That’s quite an overhelming assessment of animals, based on a very restricted observation. I’ve studied canine behavior intensively for the past seven years. But the more I know about dogs, the more I see that they’re (flexible and) unpredictable. Pretty much like the human animal.
Animals (some species more than others) can be intelligent, even moreso than humans in some respects. I can imagine that God is very disappointed in this discussion, with our lack of respect for the beauty and intricacy of a large portion of his creation. And I can imagine that Thomas Aquinas is hanging his head in shame, for misleading the human animal all these years.
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Bluegoat
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But in what way does that relate to the question of whether they have souls?
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masterjedi747
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Well… I could.
Fair enough. I got no argument with that.
OK… and others can be so freaking stupid it’s not even funny.
And I mean, that’s just an obvious fact. Perhaps you’ve read Fabre?
…I don’t see quite see anyone here actually holding a position that amounts to that?
Hold on, are you saying that Thomas Aquinas is ashamed of himself, or others?
If the first, I will severely disagree. If the second, less so.
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Nino
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I dont recall Jesus mentioning his pet poodle or plant on the cross…He died for we the people! True Hitler was kind to animals and was a vegetarian.but still he had some faults I am sure! When one compares humans to animals and plants we then have the arguments of the baby killers…abortionista get their jollies by lampooning we commoners…of course ,they are not like us so thats ok you see…I used to tease my students on this theme…dont eat meat or fish…or plants or they have a bulb like our heart and veins like ours…then only drink water…but in water there are microbes…they are deserving of life as well…and so what to do…nothing…most of the vegetarians I know are also pot heads for life is soooo dull eating just green flakes sprayed with poison on farms …have a nice day
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long215
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We humans are self aware (one aspect, I believe, is proof of a soul). We humans are given free will and the ability to choose. Animals possess no sentience because they possess no soul. Even the most well behaved dog with extensive training will feel that need to chase cars (except for lazy dogs that’ll just note the license plates
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Bluegoat
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Being self aware is not considered to be a prerequisite for a soul. Neither is being rational or having free will. It seems to me that you are confusing the idea of a soul with the idea of a immortal/rational soul, and especially a rational soul with free will.We humans are self aware (one aspect, I believe, is proof of a soul). We humans are given free will and the ability to choose. Animals possess no sentience because they possess no soul. Even the most well behaved dog with extensive training will feel that need to chase cars (except for lazy dogs that’ll just note the license plates
Sentience is another issue, and simply means the ability to perceive experiences and sensations. There is really no question that many animals are sentient. Even very primitive animals experience sensation. And I’m sure you have seen that many other animals have the ability to remember their experiences, which implies that they have “taken in” those experiences. There isn’t even really any question that many animals feel emotions. There are a few animals who come very close to being rational on a practical level.
I think what you will find is that animals are not moral beings, in that they have no conception of their actions having a moral or ethical aspect.
But again, none of these things relate to the question of having a soul.
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masterjedi747
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So you’re basically defining the term “soul” as “rational/spiritual soul”… hence animals have no soul. What you’re missing out on, though, is the broader notion of “soul” that Bluegoat is talking about… the idea that rational/spiritual soul is not the *only *kind of soul, and that there can be non-rational animal and vegetative souls that are indeed *formal *without being *spiritual *as the human soul is. So basically I think you’re just talking past each other, because you have conflicting definitions of the same term.
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severus68
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If it is such a silly question, why are you taking such an aggressive approach? I don’t know all the answers and wait for the day I will meet God ( I hope with my sins and all) to get them. By the way, I am a vegetarian and love animals, obviously, and “know” I will meet my animals in heaven. Heaven would not be heaven to me otherwise. Only God can tell me it is a sin to be and think that.
yours in Christ.
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jln
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Severus, for the first time since I joined this forum, I’m ready to leave with a smile on my face and a bit of Christian joy in my heart. Thank you for that.
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Detales
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Mu!
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long215
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There is no way on this planet that I am smarter than Thomas Aquinas. If he says their are varying level of souls out there, then he is correct. The question here is whether animals have souls like what humans have (the answer I say is no). Animals, regardless of level of soul Aquinas says animals possess, will not self-analyze, regard who their Maker is nor aspire to a level greater than what they are. (Definition: aspire to a level greater: choose to be a rocket scientist or a crack addict.) They will bark, roar, meow, move a plow, eat one another, propagate within their species, be tasty, etc. I love animals and my answers may seem a buzzkill, but when we see God, I don’t expect Fido or Mittens to be there.
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Bluegoat
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Of course, it is always possible that an animal could have capacities that we aren’t aware of, and some sort of special relationship with the divine that we can’t percieve. In which case, it would not only be an animal, but something else as well, a kind of person I suppose. If it expressed itself very differently, I’m not sure that we would recognize it.
On the other hand, it would be terrible to think we would treat such a creature as an animal alone, so if it wasn’t obvious, I would hope God might have revealed it to us. But I sometimes wonder, if we met aliens, would we be able to tell if they were just animals or also people? We don’t always seem to have done well with even other human beings on this count.
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long215
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God already revealed that to mankind. The Bible in Genesis states that when He created the animals, they were good. Moreover, stewardship of all God has entrusted us requires we treat animals humanely.
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