Do priests screen for consanguinity level 4?

[CatholicRules]

I have a question which isn’t fully answered in online CANON documentation with respect to what would happen if two first cousins knowingly got married in the Roman Catholic Church – let’s say, Canada, in the early 1970s (1973 to be exact). If they knew this and withheld the information from the priest, and the Church found out about it later on (which they never did), what would happen? How would the Church see the marriage? Invalid? Illegal? Since they were not married at City Hall, wouldn’t the civil aspect be junk also if the Church recognized it as invalid? No civil ceremony at Toronto City Hall took place, and you need a justice of the peace so doesn’t that invalidate the civil aspect?

I’m Catholic and went to Catholic school (my siblings didn’t) but I’ve never been married so I don’t know if priests ask or do “background checks”, or run a Y-chromosome test on any brother the bride might have along with the groom when she tries to marry in the RC Church. Polymerase Chain Reaction DNA testing didn’t exist in 1973. Would the priest have asked? Would he have checked via other methods?

My sister married a first cousin from Italy, and the reason I’m asking is I have to inform their children (two nieces, one nephew) to get screened because their lifetime risk of cancer is 80% if they got a gene I got from my father, which is a 50/50 chance if one parent has it. My sister has it (most likely). But, the risk their kids inherited the defect could be 100% if the father had the gene also, which is more likely in their case. My parents are totally unrelated so it doesn’t affect me either way.

I discovered this because I had to do a family tree and an aunt told me. They wanted to know who could be affected and told me to tell them. I tried and they don’t believe it because my sister is lying to them. I took the gentle approach and didn’t mention the first cousin aspect of it. Well, they threatened me and all I said was come with me to my doctor and get tested.

I inherited the gene but I never married so I didn’t pass it to anyone else, but it is scary. If you have it, your lifetime chance of getting some kind of cancer is 80%. This can be reduced by frequent screening which I now have to undergo, but I feel like I’ve been abandoned.

My father won’t talk to me, my brother won’t. I don’t get it. My brother had skin cancer. My sister had breast and thyroid cancer. My father had non polyp colon cancer.

I have no family now. I mean they broke off all contact. It gets worse but that’s another topic for another day.

 

[Trishie]

A truly sad situation for you.
I don’t know where your responsibility lay or the manner in which you told family members, and if with proper permissions. However it’s sad you are alone, as a result of an unwelcomed concern for future generations.

I have a nephew and niece who married in the Church with full knowledge and consent.
I privately struggled a little with that, because our family has an autoimmune illness lottery, which wasn’t known when most of us married. However, it was when these two married.

It isn’t a given that the illness or genetic tendency will be passed on, and as it happens, my husband’s genetics where strong enough to protect my children, and grandchildren from autoimmune illnesses though in midlife I was diagnosed with two. And although I never really took it seriously, in recent years, a family tendency to heart issues has emerged. In Emergency, I said the the medical registrar, that “My family don’t do hear, we do autoimmune,” which caused laughter, but when I thought about it, yes, we do heart, and even a canonised cousin suffered strokes towards the end of her life.

Even so, I’m mostly energetic and positive, and the siblings who have illnesses much worse than mine are incredible. The good things they achieve in family and in their communities, and their positive natures, always ready and ready laughter make me breathless with wonder at times!

Other siblings, who also hadn’t known our family genetic flaws, as little was known when we were young, have had a mixed outcome, some families exhibiting no indications in the next two generations, but some riddled with a range, where several of my siblings themselves have in midlife been diagnosed with some serious autoimmune illnesses.

What I’m saying is that it is a lottery, not a given, and it’s possible that few couples would marry and have children as probably most have some genetic flaw, even if a mental or emotional one. Illnesses of various kinds seem to show up in so many families. Oddly, I suppose, the children of my nephew and niece, in this time of medical testing, show no hint of illness or autoimmune tendency.

If I had the decision to make about marriage and children as a young person again now, yes, I’d hesitate. However my sons, even in midlife, show no signs, nor do their children.

I haven’t answered all your questions, just gave some empirical viewpoint.

You are clearly a caring and honest person, and my heart cries out to pray for you and your family

 

[CatholicRules]

Thanks for the kind words. That would be HLA, chromosome 6p21. It depends.

Remember that in 1973 the Roman Catholic Church did not allow even 2nd cousins to marry.

Them, what can you do. I tried. It’s probably all for the best anyway

 

[Phemie]

First cousins can marry with a dispensation. When my parents did, back in 1952, the Bishop initially refused to grant a dispensation, possibly due to my mother’s hip deformity. Their Pastor went to bat for them and eventually the dispensation was granted.

 

[CatholicRules]

But that was not my question. Please re-read my question.

 

[1ke]

I discovered this because I had to do a family tree and an aunt told me. They wanted to know who could be affected and told me to tell them.

If your aunt wanted them to know, she could have told them herself. You’ve now learned a hard lesson in staying out of other people’s business.

It is up to the parents to tell their children of their heritage. I’m not really sure how you keep that a secret, anyway.

As to the validity of marriage, this is an impediment that can be dispensed. You assume in charity that the couple disclosed the relationship and it was dispensed.

 

[1ke]

Remember that in 1973 the Roman Catholic Church did not allow even 2nd cousins to marry.

These impediments can be dispensed, and were routinely dispensed throughout history.

You are overstating when you say “did not allow”. Did not allow without dispensation.

 

[midori]

Since they were not married at City Hall, wouldn’t the civil aspect be junk also if the Church recognized it as invalid?

I’m in the US, so I don’t know if Canada is different, but when we got married, we had a church wedding, but about two weeks previously, we went to our local County Courthouse and filled out all the civil marriage license paperwork and paid the fee. When my parents were married (also in the US, but in a different state, and probably about 30 years previously in time), they filled out their civil paperwork at the altar, and then submitted it to the courthouse with their fee. However, here/now, you can’t do that— because there’s a 72-hour waiting period between getting your marriage license vs performing the marriage. The marriage can be performed by a judge or a justice of the peace, or the marriage can be performed by a clergyman. Regardless of the sacramental validity of the marriage, it would be a valid civil marriage. Just like suppose I married someone who had no intention of being faithful from the get-go, it would be sacramentally invalid, and I would need to go through the annulment process to get it declared so… but the State of Texas would perceive it as valid, and would require a divorce to dissolve it.

 

[CatholicRules]

They were married in 1973. A dispensation must occur before marriage. NOT AFTER.

Stay out of people’s business. I was told by hospital staff the trace it so they could contact them.

I had to inform them as my doctor discovered it and he told me to tell family to get screened. They would have two copies … maybe. The aunt simply helped me determine the age and disease each person died of.

 

[CatholicRules]

The marriage is void by default according to what I read. It is as if it never happened, and therefore the civil aspect wasn’t executed. They divorced in 2000 and their kids are grown up. My question is do priests screen for this type of thing?

 

[CatholicRules]

They did not disclose it. You do it before, not after. It would not have been dispensed. 2nd cousin was banned at that time.

 

[1ke]

They were married in 1973.

And in 1973 they could have received a dispensation, before the marriage. They were married in the Church. The pastor takes care is the premarital preparation including the investigation of freedom to marry. That was the case in 1973 and today.

A dispensation must occur before marriage. NOT AFTER.

Well, actually, if a dispensation was not obtained before the marriage it can certainly be obtained after. And whether that then requires convalidation in the external form (new consent before witnesses) or not depends on the situation and is governed by canons 1156-1165.

Stay out of people’s business.

Yep. You do not need to delve into whether their parents have a valid marriage, a dispensation, or anything else, nor disclose their family tree in order to tell them your doctor suggested family members get cancer screening due to the findings of your own genetic testing.

You are making an issue where there is none.

I was told by hospital staff the trace it so they could contact them.

If you feel strongly that you should give the info to your relatives then call them up and tell them you have hereditary gene issues and the hospital suggested that family members have cancer screenings. No need to talk about family history. They can do their own DNA tests if they choose to.

 

[CatholicRules]

Grounds for dispensation is she is past menopause or one is sterile. I am saying – do they ask and check. The answer seems to be NO.

 

[1ke]

Grounds for dispensation is she is past menopause or one is sterile.

While those are reasons a dispensation may be given, they aren’t the only reasons. It is not required that the couple be unable to have children in order for a dispensation to be granted. It is up to the discretion of the bishop

And it is not your business.

 

[1ke]

They did not disclose it.

You don’t know that.

You do it before, not after.

Yes, this should be dispensed before marriage. If for some reason it wasn’t, it definitely could have been after, per church law.

It would not have been dispensed.

Church law says differently.

2nd cousin was banned at that time.

2nd cousin required dispensation at the time, one that they certainly could have received.

You were not there during their premarital prep and you are not privy to what their priest did regarding dispensation.

So, as I said: it’s not your business.

 

[CatholicRules]

You are not listening. The risk DOUBLES. in them. These are adult children with children. I don’t mind my business when the health of others is in jeopardy. The first cousin stuff was very important if they both got a copy. I asked to speak to the father for another reason. They wouldn’t let me because they think I’m some kind of warlock, so I spoke to the eldest daughter. Well, she didn’t believe it and I said why would I make up something like this – I didn’t even know myself. They ran this test without my consent.

They asked me to try to trace where it came from so as not to alarm anyone who had no chance of getting it. I traced it up, and then pruned it down. The mother would not give me anything, and hospitals are not going to do spend hours on this. So, I did my job. They are my nieces and nephews, not strangers. They can take their chances.

My brother reacted the same way – do you remember that skin cancer you had – what kind was it? Why? Oh, they’re doing a history on me. Can you give me a lift on Wednesday? He had the type.

 

[CatholicRules]

THERE WAS NO DISPENSATION. What is the purpose of it? You just apply and they rubber stamp it and put offspring at risk who have no say? That is selfish. Take chances with yourself, not children who haven’t been born yet.

 

[1ke]

You are not listening. The risk DOUBLES. in them.

I am listening.

You simply tell them the hospital told you to notify relatives that they should go in for cancer screening.

Done.

Whether they do or don’t follow up is on them.

There is NO reason to be delving into the validity of the parents marriage. None.

 

[1ke]

THERE WAS NO DISPENSATION.

You do not and cannot know this. Why? Because you aren’t the priest that prepared them for marriage. And the diocese doesn’t give out this information.

And if there was no dispensation, who cares??? It’s not your business!

What is the purpose of it? You just apply and they rubber stamp it and put offspring at risk who have no say?

Yes. Second cousin marriages were not uncommon in the past.

And today it doesn’t even require a dispensation at all. So, that is how important the Church currently thinks it is: not at all.

In general genetic anomalies associated with second cousins having children is not really significant compared to the population at large:

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/risk-second-cousins-having-child-disability

That is selfish. Take chances with yourself, not children who haven’t been born yet.

That’s not how the Church sees it. Are you saying, for example, my grandmother who had MS shouldn’t have had children because it’s hereditary? The Church doesn’t teach eugenics.

 

[CatholicRules]

They divorced. I was curious. Do you mind? They should ask and screen for it. That rule is there for a reason and it is to protect. What kind of training does a Bishop have in genetic profiling in 1973 when it didn’t even exist. How does he decide? He can’t. If 2nd is out, they’re going to allow 1st? On what grounds? In the past if they caught this they were excommunicated.