Do pro-lifers have an obligation to care for pregnant women and the lives of those after they born?

[PetersKeys]

I personally think that if Peterskeys can’t stick to the real topic on hand, he should discontinue posting in this thread or the OP should make a request to redirect the postings back to the topic. Try as you might Peterskeys, the OP isn’t talking about your personal viewpoints about women,but has specifically stated they are asking about the responsibility of the state to assist pregnant women.

That is you closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears because you don’t not want to hear the truth. If anything your ad-hominems that provide no information are the biggest derail.

Sadly, it DOES have allot to do with abortion. And I am giving a solution to the problem of assisting women. That is teaching them proper domestic roles and a correct mindset and view of marriage. Young women need to be taught a traditional mindset of marriage, a respect for the unborn, and respect for marriage, and the parents authority remaining until she gets married…

Compare the women in say, the 19th century, where they were taught domestication at a very early age, to the women of today, where they are taught NOTHING about motherhood, marriage, and the domestic life.

Compare how many abortions women had back then, to how many have them today. Before 1920 less than 3% of all women had abortions. Now it is almost 35%.

*Abortion ratio 1931 - 0.2

Abortion ratio in 2004 - 198.9*



johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html

you notice that HUGE increase after 1970?? compare that to 1930…Funny how it was right during 1970 when the feminist anti-family sexual revolution came along in its full force and soon after Roe v Wade.

But you won’t look at that. Because of political correctness and the inability to want to shift and change the culture of the family in the US. Instead you want to put a small band aid on a huge gaping wound.

If you want to get rid of abortion and family turmoil, your gonna have to go back and solve the ROOTS of the problem. Which is dysfunctional motherhood, dysfunctional marriage, family rearing, feminism, and dehumanization of the unborn.

But for the EXACT number of women that walk into a clinic to abort, there is an EXACT number of men who wantonly left their sperm where it would not be taken care of. They are accessories to the crime. Can’t think of too many stories where the men are standing on the curb begging them to stop. Heck, most aren’t around long enough to KNOW they made a baby.

Considering there are laws where the man has NO SAY in whether the child can be kept or not It really is a hard position. Considering since the government gives the woman so much legal power over the life of her child while the father has none. Remember the motto, its only the mothers choice that she can do what she wants to do… Thanks feminism…

but who is the one pulling the trigger?? A person can have allot of terrible things happen in their life. But that never gives them the excuse to kill someone…If I am an “accessory to crime” does that mean I can get a gun and start shooting people? And when the judge condemns me I can just tell him that I’m a “victim” and an accessory to crime. You see? That doesn’t work in real life, and it should not work with abortion either. Killing is wrong, and the person who kills is fully responsible. Abortion is an issue of culpability that lays around 100% on the woman because she is the one allowing the doctor to kill her child. It is sin. The Church considers abortion to be a grave sin. And there are requirements for a sin, which includes full consent and knowledge. Women who kill their children fully consented to it with their fully knowledge and intent.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Women who kill their children fully consented to it with their fully knowledge and intent.

I agree with some of what you posit, but this is frankly not true. Most abortion-minded women DO NOT have full knowledge, they are lied to and coerced toward this “choice.” Even if they suspect that what they are carrying is a baby and not a “blob of tissue,” it is not full knowledge because of the deception that is involved. Abortion promoters tell women that even if it is a baby, it won’t feel anything and that it’s more merciful than bringing that baby into the world.

It’s not just women who need to be retrained in proper relationships to life. Men too need a lot of rehab. Let’s just start with everyone and recognize that we have a lot of work ahead of us.

 

[spunjalebi]

It’s not just women who need to be retrained in proper relationships to life. Men too need a lot of rehab. Let’s just start with everyone and recognize that we have a lot of work ahead of us.

But didn’t you know, women should be taught proper domesticated roles for their lives and that’ll solve it all. Nevermind that men do need a ton of rehab, it’s women…

And Peterskeys, you’ve pretty much blasted all women with the red herring attacks yourself, and quite frankly the failure to really address the issue that the OP has stated multiples times just shows you are more interested in furthering your own viewpoints, rather than contributing constructively to this thread. You want to hear people tell you that you’re right, women should know their “domesticated” roles and it’s women who ought to make sure they know better, in spite of the fact that this issue is caused by men and women. In fact, by further inciting that it’s women who ought to know better and have proper “training,” I don’t believe I have anything further to say in this thread.

 

[PetersKeys]

I agree with some of what you posit, but this is frankly not true. Most abortion-minded women DO NOT have full knowledge, they are lied to and coerced toward this “choice.” Even if they suspect that what they are carrying is a baby and not a “blob of tissue,” it is not full knowledge because of the deception that is involved. Abortion promoters tell women that even if it is a baby, it won’t feel anything and that it’s more merciful than bringing that baby into the world.

It’s not just women who need to be retrained in proper relationships to life. Men too need a lot of rehab. Let’s just start with everyone and recognize that we have a lot of work ahead of us.

that wouldn’t work in a court of law. If someone took a gun and shot someone they would be charged with murder. They could not say “but I was co-erced into pulling the trigger and had no full knowledge”… well the person has enough knowledge to know how to kill someone, and that should be it. What part of “thou shall not kill” do people not understand??

And Peterskeys, you’ve pretty much blasted all women with the red herring attacks yourself, and quite frankly the failure to really address the issue that the OP has stated multiples times just shows you are more interested in furthering your own viewpoints, rather than contributing constructively to this thread. You want to hear people tell you that you’re right, women should know their “domesticated” roles and it’s women who ought to make sure they know better, in spite of the fact that this issue is caused by men and women. In fact, by further inciting that it’s women who ought to know better and have proper “training,” I don’t believe I have anything further to say in this thread.

that is fine, you have provided nothing in this thread anyway except ad-hominem attacks on my views as to how to help solve this problem.

The core of my post is all wrapped up in the book of Titus 2:4-5

Did you ever maybe question yourself why abortion was so low in the early 20th century and before? Do you think, just maybe, that women back then had a better sense of motherhood and domestication than they do today? And that because of that they were able to deal with their children in a much more responsible manner because of the stronger domesticated ethics and culture during that time??

Secondly, I didn’t say domestication was just one issue. I said it is part of the issue. How many young women who have children today are really prepared for domestication? Barely any. Since they have no preparation they feel they will not be able to be good mothers. And thus they are more likely inclined to have an abortion.

However if a mother teaches her daughter how to be a LADY, and teaches her about femininity, domestication, nurturing, baby-sitting, sewing, chivalry, authority, docility, chasity, modesty, submissiveness, discreetness, and being a keeper at home she will be prepared for children and a husband when she gets older. You know, what the bible actually says:

women are to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. - Titus 2:5

This does not mean, of course, that they are never to go abroad, but they are not to neglect their domestic affairs; they are not to be better known abroad than at home; they are not to omit their own duties and become “busy-bodies” in the concerns of others. Religion is the patron of the domestic virtues, and regards the appropriate duties in a family as those most intimately connected with its own progress in the world. It looks benignly on all which makes home a place of contentment, intelligence, and peace. It does not flourish when domestic duties are neglected; - and whatever may be done abroad, or whatever self-denial and zeal in the cause of religion may be evinced there, or whatever call there may be for the labors of Christians there, or however much good may be actually done abroad, religion has gained nothing, on the whole, if, in order to secure these things, the duties of a wife and mother at home have been disregarded. Our first duty is at home, and all other duties will be well performed just in proportion as that is

A woman who spends much time in visiting, must neglect her family. The idleness, dirtiness, impudence, and profligacy of the children, will soon show how deeply criminal the mother was in rejecting the apostle’s advice. Instead of οικουρους, keepers of the house, or keepers at home, ACD*EFG, and several of the Itala, have οικουργους, workers at home; not only staying in the house and keeping the house, but working in the house. A woman may keep the house very closely, and yet do little in it for the support or comfort of the family.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Titus 2:1-8

1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

6 **Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us. **

 

[jilly4ski]

that wouldn’t work in a court of law. If someone took a gun and shot someone they would be charged with murder. They could not say “but I was co-erced into pulling the trigger and had no full knowledge”… well the person has enough knowledge to know how to kill someone, and that should be it. What part of “thou shall not kill” do people not understand??

Umm actually you are incorrect, you can go into a court of law and say I was coerced/forced to shot someone. That would be a legitimate defense, it may or may not prevent a guilty verdict, and may or may not go to limiting your sentence, but it does and has worked.

Also why do you bring up “thou shall not kill”? The Church allows for people to kill in self-defense. (The Church also rightly says that this never applies in an abortion case, but I could see people with malformed consciences trying to use this argument (the secular self defense argument) as justification, both men and women).

 

[PetersKeys]

Umm actually you are incorrect, you can go into a court of law and say I was coerced/forced to shot someone. That would be a legitimate defense, it may or may not prevent a guilty verdict, and may or may not go to limiting your sentence, but it does and has worked.

Also why do you bring up “thou shall not kill”? The Church allows for people to kill in self-defense. (The Church also rightly says that this never applies in an abortion case, but I could see people with malformed consciences trying to use this argument (the secular self defense argument) as justification, both men and women).

considering this is a topic on abortion, and the Church doesn’t consider abortion to be self defense. hence I was directing my argument at this

abortion is 100% culpable action. The government gives the woman 100% authority over her child whether she can kill or not. Hence the onus is on the woman as far as abortion goes. Men have no say with regards to abortion due to the laws of the government. Hence it is fully a woman’s issue with culpability laying fully at her doorstep and the abortion doctors.

Don’t get angry at that. Blame your government. They say the decision is fully the womans and the father has no say in the issue and no legal power to save to child, hence the culpability is fully hers. A woman who dies during an abortion is a sure-fire way to hell probably considering a mortal sin is being committed while they are dying.

 

[jilly4ski]

considering this is a topic on abortion, and the Church doesn’t consider abortion to be self defense. hence I was directing my argument at this

abortion is 100% culpable action. The government gives the woman 100% authority over her child whether she can kill or not. Hence the onus is on the woman as far as abortion goes. Men have no say with regards to abortion due to the laws of the government. Hence it is fully a woman’s issue with culpability laying fully at her doorstep and the abortion doctors.

Don’t get angry at that. Blame your government. They say the decision is fully the womans and the father has no say in the issue and no legal power to save to child, hence the culpability is fully hers. A woman who dies during an abortion is a sure-fire way to hell probably considering a mortal sin is being committed while they are dying.

I am really confused at your posting, you seem to be mixing secular/governmental culpability and responsibility with moral culpability. Indeed the government gives women the sole responsibility though this does not prevent men or parents from coercing their daughters or even forcing women, (it was in the news lately that a girls “partner” drove her at gun point to an abortion clinic, and that a girl got emancipated from her parents because they tried to force/coerce her into an abortion) into getting abortions. The Church also places culpability on men and women who obtain, promote, participate, and cooperate in an abortion. So I guess I am confused on what you are trying to argue. Many people could commit a mortal sin of abortion, not just a woman, but not everyone who participates in an abortion commits a mortal sin, they commit a grave sin, which could be mortal.

 

[PetersKeys]

I am really confused at your posting, you seem to be mixing secular/governmental culpability and responsibility with moral culpability. Indeed the government gives women the sole responsibility though this does not prevent men or parents from coercing their daughters or even forcing women, (it was in the news lately that a girls “partner” drove her at gun point to an abortion clinic, and that a girl got emancipated from her parents because they tried to force/coerce her into an abortion) into getting abortions. The Church also places culpability on men and women who obtain, promote, participate, and cooperate in an abortion. So I guess I am confused on what you are trying to argue. Many people could commit a mortal sin of abortion, not just a woman, but not everyone who participates in an abortion commits a mortal sin, they commit a grave sin, which could be mortal.

Laws stem from moral judgments. Whether if they be government or not. The government makes it impossible for a father to save his own child from abortion. Since the father or family has no say in abortion, it is soley on the woman’s shoulders of whether they kill, or not kill.

I am talking about the issue of murder. The woman and the doctor are the murderers in the act. People who support abortion commit sin, but they are committing a different sin, the sin of being an accomplice. Yet the one who is literally “pulling the trigger” is the woman and the abortion doctor. Without these 2 entity’s abortion would cease to exist, no matter how many supporters there are. The supporters of abortion rely on the murdering of the abortion doctor and the mother. Like people who sell illegal weapons to support genocide. However these people rely on the people who USE the weapons to kill…

 

[Holly3278]

Yes, we as pro-lifers do have an obligation to care for pregnant women and the lives of those after they are born. If we only care for the preborn and not the already born, then what does that say about us? To me, that says we care about one thing only and that would be the preborn. But that is not the case. We most definitely do care about pregnant women and those already born! If we are going to end abortion, we must also take care of pregnant women and those who are already born! Otherwise the temptation to get an abortion only increases!

 

[PetersKeys]

Yes, we as pro-lifers do have an obligation to care for pregnant women and the lives of those after they are born. If we only care for the preborn and not the already born, then what does that say about us? To me, that says we care about one thing only and that would be the preborn. But that is not the case. We most definitely do care about pregnant women and those already born! If we are going to end abortion, we must also take care of pregnant women and those who are already born! Otherwise the temptation to get an abortion only increases!

currently, most of the pregnant centers for women are christian charity. Optionline, Bethanys, Birthright, National life Center, Nurturing network. These are all christian charities that help women with child. The fact that they accuse christians of not caring after children are born is simply a lie, and them not willing to actually research the facts. Pretty much, it is an appeal to emotion.

However on top of this parents must teach their daughters correct guidance in order to prepare when they have children and a husband. So that when they do have children, they will know what to do. How many parents today get their daughters books on things like mid-wifery, marriage, and childbearing? Barely any. The next generation of women are unprepared for children, and thus when it happens, they feel more inclined to get an abortion because their parents have not instilled within them the good traits of motherhood, respect for marriage, and domestication.

 

[Holly3278]

currently, most of the pregnant centers for women are christian charity. Optionline, Bethanys, Birthright, National life Center, Nurturing network. These are all christian charities that help women with child. The fact that they accuse christians of not caring after children are born is simply a lie, and them not willing to actually research the facts. Pretty much, it is an appeal to emotion.

However on top of this parents must teach their daughters correct guidance in order to prepare when they have children and a husband. So that when they do have children, they will know what to do. How many parents today get their daughters books on things like mid-wifery, marriage, and childbearing? Barely any. The next generation of women are unprepared for children, and thus when it happens, they feel more inclined to get an abortion because their parents have not instilled within them the good traits of motherhood, respect for marriage, and domestication.

I totally agree. The pro-abortion side either refuses to do the research or they just choose to outright lie about us.

I also agree that girls are nowhere near prepared enough for a baby when one does come! To me, that is horrible. I honestly can’t figure out why child raising classes aren’t required in all public and private schools!

 

[PetersKeys]

I totally agree. The pro-abortion side either refuses to do the research or they just choose to outright lie about us.

I also agree that girls are nowhere near prepared enough for a baby when one does come! To me, that is horrible. I honestly can’t figure out why child raising classes aren’t required in all public and private schools!

child raising classes would be a wonderful thing! AND parents must do their duty too to instill correct traits and have their children obey their authority at all costs.

 

[Holly3278]

child raising classes would be a wonderful thing! AND parents must do their duty too to instill correct traits and have their children obey their authority at all costs.

Again, I totally agree!