Do Protestants Believe in Mortal Sins and Venial Sins?

[PJM]

=I Thirst;8279990]I’d imagine that there can be no definitive answer among Protestant denominations. One will preach one thing, and another will preach another thing. Repeat 33,000 times.

IF TRUE:shrug: What does that say about protestant religions when the bible is so very clear ???

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1John.5 Verses 16 to 1 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained"ar?

 

[steve_b]

Hi steve,

First of all, thank for that post!

:tiphat: and thanks for yours
E:

Right, I’ve grabbed my Barclay’s Commentary of the New Testament on that:

Barclay writes (after a lengthy and interesting discussion over the topic what the sin leading to death is/could be), that the sin leading to death (can only be) is denying that Jesus hase come in the flesh.

If that’s what Barclay is saying, (highlighted) he’s wrong
E:

As I believe that the bible explains itself, for me it’s also clear that a sin leading to death must be the denying of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, the HS prompts a soul to repent. If one doesn’t respond to the HS, and doesn’t repent, and that continues till death, that’s considered commiting the unforgivable sin, because God won’t forgive what you aren’t sorry for. Therefore one dies in their sins. If those sins are mortal, they go straight to hell.

So you are probably asking yourself at this point, where in scripture are mortal sins listed.

Keep reading
E:

Do you also have verses that proove that there is more than one sin leading to death.? (the so called Mortal Sins?)

To answer that, here’s something for consideration and discussion

Re: Sin: There’s distinctions

“leading to death” (mortal)

“not leading to death” (non mortal i.e. venial)

1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Does this contradict/conflict with

Rom 5:
12 * Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and sodeath spread to all men because all men sinned-

Rom 6:23
the wages of sin is death…

How then can John say not all sin leads to death (mortal)? We know everybody dies. Yet John says not all sin leads to death, (i.e. not all sin is mortal).

What then does death mean in this context?

…“death” in this case, is a synonym for distruction of sanctifying grace in the soul. If one dies in that state they go to hell. As John says "all wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death (i.e., not a mortal sin) i.e. keeps one from heaven

Which sins are mortal then? i.e., which sins send a soul to hell if one dies in them?

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…

(to be continued )

 

[steve_b]

(continued)

That’s what Baptists teach all the time by the way: You need to believe first in God and then that Jesus has come in the flesh and died for us on the cross so that we can have a relationship again with God which hasn’t been possible since Adam’s and Eve’s fall in the Garden of Eden. - So, naturally denying God (in whatever Person) means that you don’t want to have to do anything with Him, and God will accept that, with the consequence that you will die (and not resurrect) and will end in a place where God is not (commonly known as Hell! )

Re: the soul

Once the soul is created by God at our conception, the soul lives forever. It is immortal. It never sleeps, it never dies. The body dies but the soul immediately after the death of the body, is judged. Ultimately there are only 2 places in eternity where the soul resides for all eternity. Heaven or hell. Purgatory is temporary.

The properties of the soul, that are likewise immortal, are memory intellect and will. It’s obvious we have to have these so that we can experience and process the afterlife…good if a soul goes to heaven, and bad if a soul goes to hell. Plus we need to recognize the Trinity, Father Son and HS, and Mary and Joseph, the arc angels, the saints, our loved ones etc etc etc

Sin seperates us from God. That CAN be but doesn’t have to be, a permenent seperation.

Protestants often paraphrase “nothing can seperate us from God” [Rom 8:38-39] The actual passage reads

38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

in the meantime, many think sin as a result won’t seperate a soul from God. All it says is that it won’t seperate us from the love of God. iow, we can be seperated from God, just not His love.
E:

So, to conclude, there are TWO types of sins:

1. denying God (no matter in which person). which is the sin that leads to death
2. all other sins, which are in the eyes of God all the same severe! (as it says in the saying, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinners”).

Go back and see ALL the mortal (deadly) sins scripture lists in my previous post. Denying God is one of the mortal sins.

All sins are NOT the same severity.
E:

.

And as you have pointed correctly out by quoting this verse:

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them (NASB) (1 Jn 5:18)

it is true that Christians “aren’t be able to sin anymore”, as St. John (1 Jn 3:9) also writes again in his 1st letter, Chapter 3, Verse 9. Simply, because they will refrain from sin, because they know God and love Him and thus will do/follow His commandments

The passage doesn’t say Christians aren’t able to sin anymore.

Who do you know who has not sinned? Who do you know who doesn’t continue to sin?

*Protestants *(that’s stupid. I won’t write about Protestants in General. - I meant Baptsits) don’t believe in that what Catholics call mortal sins (and name improper sexuality (like sex outside marriage) etc. - what you’ve written above, don’t want to copy that all), but only what I’ve written above in my post.

Protestants/Baptists is a distinction without a difference.
E:

All other sins, if we repent, aren’t deadly. (If we don’t, by the way, every sin is deadly! Because sinning, no matter what sin, is rebellion against God! Otherwise it wouldn’t be a sin, would it?) And we can also pray for that and God will forgive us, if we are His.

in Christ,

Yes every sin is a rebellion against God. But John clearly states

1 Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Re: bible translations given the passages we’re discussing

NASB
In 1 Jn 5
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

RSV-CE
1 Jn 5:
*16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, **he will ask, and God * will give him life *for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Q:

If it’s not recommended to pray for forgiveness of mortal sins as it is with veneal sins (sins that are NOT mortal), what do Protestants do to get rid of Mortal sins on their souls.?

 

[Esdra]

steve b:

If it’s not recommended to pray for forgiveness of mortal sins as it is with veneal sins (sins that are NOT mortal), what do Protestants do to get rid of Mortal sins on their souls.?

Hi Steve,

First of all, it’s really intersting and nice talking to you.

To your question: Most Protestants - (btw., I don’t think it doesn’t matter whether you use Protestant or Baptist - there are differences, also on our topic, between the various denominations!) - have given their life to Jesus and want to live with Him. And, so is my experience, they won’t do “mortal sins” anymore, after they are reborn. If they do, Christ is not in them, so they are Atheists or Agnostics, and they usually don’t care then about mortal sins or sin in general. (without repenting of course they aren’t Christians anymore! If they do repent, see below!)
By the way, they same also goes, IMO, for devout Catholics and cafeteria Catholics or Catholics on the paper only (which are sadly enough so many out there in the world… :/)

And I btw. also believe that God will also **forgive **those so called mortal sins, if we come repentfully to Him and ask for forgiveness in His mercy. (Nothing can seperate us from His love!) And if we do love God, we will remember Him and we will see our trespasses by studying His word.
Anyway, Baptists do pray for the Atheists. (And also “former Christians” - which both most certainly live in mortal sins!) quoting:

Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (All quotes: KJV ***)

And here it says clearly “**whatsoever **ye shall ask”.

Hope that answers your question.

in Christ,*

 

[steve_b]

Hi Steve,

First of all, it’s really intersting and nice talking to you.

Same in return
E:

To your question: Most Protestants - (btw., I don’t think it doesn’t matter whether you use Protestant or Baptist - there are differences, also on our topic, between the various denominations!) - have given their life to Jesus and want to live with Him. And, so is my experience, they won’t do “mortal sins” anymore, after they are reborn. If they do, Christ is not in them, so they are Atheists or Agnostics, and they usually don’t care then about mortal sins or sin in general.

Re: “born again” or “reborn”, Jesus answer to Nicodemis is refering to baptism Jn 3:5. It happens once. And can’t be repeated over and over again. Do you know people who commit mortal sin after baptism? Take a look at all those sins mentioned in my previous post. For example, the sin of adultery. Everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery. Are there people who have been baptized, living in adultery? How is one to get rid of that sin?

The purpose of giving you different translations is to show similarity, but also to draw your attention to a specific sentence regarding the forgiveness of mortal sin

NASB
1 Jn 5
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

RSV-CE
1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him lifefor those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Do you see what I’m refering to?

Q:

If John doesn’t recommend praying to God for forgiveness of mortal sin like one can do for the forgiveness of venial sin, what does a Protestant do to get rid of mortal sin on their soul?
E:

By the way, they same also goes, IMO, for devout Catholics and cafeteria Catholics or Catholics on the paper only (which are sadly enough so many out there in the world…

Agreed
E:

And I btw. also believe that God will also **forgive **those so called mortal sins, if we come repentfully to Him and ask for forgiveness in His mercy. (Nothing can seperate us from His love!) And if we do love God, we will remember Him and we will see our trespasses by studying His word.

Speaking of stugying His word,

Why do you think John makes the point he does, regarding mortal sin and venial sin, and specifically NOT depending on one’s prayer to have mortal sin forgiven?
E:

Anyway, Baptists do pray for the Atheists. (And also “former Christians” - which both most certainly live in mortal sins!) quoting:

Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Who is Jesus specifically talking to? It’s His apostles
E:

Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (All quotes: KJV ****)

Who is Jesus talking to? It’s His apostles
E:

And here it says clearly "**whatsoever **

ye shall ask".

Hope that answers your question.

in Christ,

1 Jn 5: 16-18 is talking NOT to apostles but to us.

See the difference?

 

[hn160]

“sin is sin” is highly misleading.

"all sin is wrongdoing, but not all sin leads to death " [1 Jn 5:17]

All sin is forgivable, except being unrepentent till death.

What did I say?

 

[Esdra]

Re: “born again” or “reborn”, Jesus answer to Nicodemis is refering to baptism Jn 3:5. It happens once. And can’t be repeated over and over again. Do you know people who commit mortal sin after baptism? Take a look at all those sins mentioned in my previous post. For example, the sin of adultery. Everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery. Are there people who have been baptized, living in adultery? How is one to get rid of that sin?

Especially your example of divorcing and remarrying is very difficult for me.
I know that Baptists are not that strict about divorce and remarriage than Catholics.
And, as far as I know, my pastor once said that if you’ll ask Jesus for forgiveness repentfully, he’ll also forgive you that sin. (And if everything’s okay again between you and God/Jesus, you can even partake at the Lord’s Supper.)
But he is a pastor, is also concerned to try everything to kit the marriage before it even comes to a divorce.

The purpose of giving you different translations is to show similarity, but also to draw your attention to a specific sentence regarding the forgiveness of mortal sin

NASB
1 Jn 5
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

RSV-CE
1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him lifefor those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Do you see what I’m refering to?

I think we are turning in circles here. For you mortal sin is something completely different than for me.
Of course, if you deny that Jesus has come in the flesh, and/or deny the Holy Spirit, then you shouldn’t pray for that person that does so. This is a (better: the) mortal sin. All other sins are IMO, venial (to use your/the Catholic term)

Q:

If John doesn’t recommend praying to God for forgiveness of mortal sin like one can do for the forgiveness of venial sin, what does a Protestant do to get rid of mortal sin on their soul?

There is only one mortal sin. See above.

Agreed

Yes, indeed, that’s so sad… I know so many. And for me this is the first step that people’ll leave the Church or, even worse, Christianity all together, and become either entire atheists or agnostics…

Speaking of stugying His word,

Why do you think John makes the point he does, regarding mortal sin and venial sin, and specifically NOT depending on one’s prayer to have mortal sin forgiven?

Because we have a very different understanding of the term mortal sin. As simple as that! (see also above!)

Who is Jesus specifically talking to? It’s His apostles

No, I mean, yes, he does. But (and I’ve also discussed in depth and length with guanophore once here) it also goes for us! We are all priests. And Jesus is the High Priest. And a pastor or an elder only takes voluntarely works (preaching, music making for the worship, leading through the service etc.) but he doesn’t have “special powers” or so. He is just another brother/sister in Christ Jesus as I am to another brother/sister. Not more and not less.

1 Jn 5: 16-18 is talking NOT to apostles but to us.

See the difference?

No, actually not. We are all priets, aren’t we? And what Jesus has spoken to the Apostles, also goes for us!! We all can (in theory) baptise, forgive sins, anoint the sick (better: pray for the sick) etc…

in Christ,

 

[steve_b]

What did I say?

you said

“To Lutherans, sin is sin, God hates all sin, the only unforgiveable sin, is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is to reject your Baptism.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

Are there any Protestant denominations which have a similar concept to that of Catholicism with regard to mortal sins and venial sins, or is this distinction found only in Catholicism? If there is a similar distinction in certain branches of Protestantism, what is the distinction? If not, what do various Protestant denominations say about the nature and types of sin?

Actually, the distinction is only found in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Catholics do not traditionally have distinction between venial and mortal sins.

 

[Esdra]

Actually, the distinction is only found in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Catholics do not traditionally have distinction between venial and mortal sins.

Interesting information. So do the Orthodox then also believe (similar to Protestants) that all sins are the same evil in the sight of god?

 

[lyrikal]

Actually, the distinction is only found in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Catholics do not traditionally have distinction between venial and mortal sins.

I don’t know about all Eastern Catholics. As a Chaldean Catholic, I believe we have a distinction between mortal and venial sins. I may be wrong on this but I am confident that if I were to ask the Chaldean priests, they would say that there is a distinction. Your post is making me curious now. Hmmm…

 

[Georgia]

My former independent Baptist church rejected the notion of there being levels of sin. All sin was considered the same. I well remember sitting in a long sermon that took that position, but I never could reach the same point of view of my pastor. If you hold that view, it would seem you are saying murder and saying a curse word are equal in God’s eyes.

No matter the sin, all a person had to so was to say a private prayer of repentance and the sin was forever forgiven and forgotten. There was no such thing as confession nor was there a such thing as God’s punishing a person for sins that had been forgiven in prayer. It was all over once the person repented and prayed.

 

[ciero]

Are there any Protestant denominations which have a similar concept to that of Catholicism with regard to mortal sins and venial sins, or is this distinction found only in Catholicism? If there is a similar distinction in certain branches of Protestantism, what is the distinction? If not, what do various Protestant denominations say about the nature and types of sin?

Eastern catholic and Orthodox do NOT have a concept of moral and genial sins either. Sin is sin…and separates one from God.

 

[x1980x]

In my church, as well as among Southern Baptists and Independent Fundamental Baptists, the only “mortal” sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is often interpreted to mean a person’s obstinate, lifelong refusal to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

 

[x1980x]

Actually, the distinction is only found in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Catholics do not traditionally have distinction between venial and mortal sins.

How do you know, then, whether or not you need to go to confession before taking communion?

 

[Bluegoat]

Interesting information. So do the Orthodox then also believe (similar to Protestants) that all sins are the same evil in the sight of god?

I don’t think that this description is really descriptive of an educated Protestant position, or an Eastern position. There is a sense in which it is true, and a sense in which it isn’t.

How do you know, then, whether or not you need to go to confession before taking communion?

Most Orthodox are expected to go to Confession on a regular basis as directed by their confessor, or when something weighs on them and they feel/think it is creating a barrier. Some might tell you that the relationship of confession before communion is not as cut and dried as with the Roman church as well.

But I am never sure why Catholics find this odd. Given that there is no official Roman Catholic list of mortal and venial sins, how do you decide when you need to go to confession?

 

[steve_b]

Especially your example of divorcing and remarrying is very difficult for me.
I know that Baptists are not that strict about divorce and remarriage than Catholics.

Esdra,

Is it different for you than anyone else? No

Mark 10:11
He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.

Mark 10:12
And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Luke 16:18
“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

How serious is adultery?

• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

btw, as you know adultery is also a married spouse having sexual relations outside their marriage.
E:

And, as far as I know, my pastor once said that if you’ll ask Jesus for forgiveness repentfully, he’ll also forgive you that sin. (And if everything’s okay again between you and God/Jesus, you can even partake at the Lord’s Supper.)

I think we are turning in circles here*. For you mortal sin is something completely different than for me.*

You know now, there is that distinction to sin, and there is sin (plural) that is mortal. It’s the same for EVERYONE.
.
E:

Of course, if you deny that Jesus has come in the flesh, and/or deny the Holy Spirit, then you shouldn’t pray for that person that does so.

Why does John say, one can pray for non mortal sin and God forgives that sin? Why does John THEN say one shouldn’t do that for forgiveness of mortal sin?

You’re avoiding that question
E:

This is a (better: the) mortal sin. All other sins are IMO, venial (to use your/the Catholic term)

specific sins were identified that keep one from heaven if one dies with them on their soul. There are many of those sins, not just one. Although as a catagory those sins mentioned are mortal sin
E:

There is only one mortal sin. See above.

Sin is both singular and plural.

All those sins I listed are mortal.
E:

Because we have a very different understanding of the term mortal sin. As simple as that! (see also above!)

Now you know differently. Now you should educate your protestant pastor.
E:

No, I mean, yes, he does. But (and I’ve also discussed in depth and length with guanophore once here) it also goes for us! We are all priests. And Jesus is the High Priest. And a pastor or an elder only takes voluntarely works (preaching, music making for the worship, leading through the service etc.) but* he doesn’t have “special powers” or so. He is just another brother/sister in Christ Jesus as I am to another brother/sister. Not more and not less*.

For you as a protestant, that’s correct. It’s a consequence of protestantism.
E:

No, actually not. We are all priets, aren’t we?

Priesthood of believers, is not the same as a ministerial priest validly ordained by a valid bishop in apostolic succession.
E:

And what Jesus has spoken to the Apostles, also goes for us!! We all can (in theory) baptise, forgive sins, anoint the sick (better: pray for the sick) etc…

in Christ,

If you do something against me, I can forgive you of that. But if you do something to another, and ask me for forgiveness of that, I can’t forgive you of that, and I can’t give you absolution for that. If you commit mortal sin(s), I can’t forgive you for that. I can’t give you absolution, THAT’S the point!!! It requires a validly ordained priest with the powere to forgive or retain sin.

When Jesus said after ordaining His apostles, He breathed on them, said recieve the Holy Spirit, whose sins YOU forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you retain they are retained, that’s a power THEY received. NOT you or I. Jesus wasn’t speaking to the entire planet when He gave that power. He gave that specifically to His apostles. The power was specific to those He ordained and to those they ordained, and to those who were ordained in THAT line of succession.

 

[steve_b]

Actually, the distinction is only found in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Catholics do not traditionally have distinction between venial and mortal sins.

The distinction is in scripture. It’s absolutely clear.

 

[steve_b]

Interesting information. So do the Orthodox then also believe (similar to Protestants) that all sins are the same evil in the sight of god?

Esdra,

All sin is wrongdoing but there is sin that is not mortal.(does not lead to death) [1 Jn 5:17]

Can scripture be any clearer?. Where’s the argument here?

 

[steve_b]

Eastern catholic and Orthodox do NOT have a concept of moral and genial sins either. Sin is sin…and separates one from God.

All sin is wrongdoing but there is sin that is not mortal.(does not lead to death) [1 Jn 5:17]