Do Protestants Believe in Mortal Sins and Venial Sins?

[Esdra]

Which book of Scott’s did you lay aside?

Oh, and I’ve led another book aside as well, this was even worse: “Surprised by Truth” by Patrick Madrid.

At the beginning, when it was described how people have found to Christ (and entered a Protestant Church), I’ve thought wow, great. And sometimes I was even near tears. It is so great that people can find to Christ Jesus, even if they have lived all their previous life in total sin.
But then mostly I just couldn’t understand why they would go to the CC?!
I mean, I have gone the other way round (from RCC to Baptist) - and I simply can’t understand people converting to Catholicism - and then even be very devout. (In Austria there are VERY FEW devout Catholics left; And Catholics similar devout to you and other Catholics here on CAF are even rarer.) Nevertheless, I’ve read it up to page 214 of 269.

(And Scott Hahn’s Reasons to believe I’ve read up to 90 of 197… see above.)

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi Everyone,

@Edras
No one has a right to substitute his own private judgment for God’s. If God clearly tells us that some sins will lock you out of heaven, we can’t decide on our own “But I don’t see that as serious enough to warrant eternal separation from God. I don’t think you could go to hell for that”

Doesn’t such a stance remind you of Adam and Eve at the garden? You can picture the scenario described where God tells them “The day you eat of the fruit of the tree…you shall surely DIE.” What rationalization do you think the Devil used to tempt them? “You will NOT die”! They then believed this rationalization (read here:lie!), disobeyed and well…died!!!- They lost God’s friendship “for good” in a sense, until God prepared the way back (our Lord). The Devil who is as old in this world as the world itself is up to his old tricks again with “modern” man. But surely God cannot allow these people I know to go to Hell! Surely homosexual sins, adultery, fornication- Surely these cannot send anyone to Hell! Don’t you fall for it!!! Believe what God tells you because He loves you so much. He wants the best for you and for all his children. “For God wants all to be saved”

Why would you want to risk your own soul, more precious than all the world (our lord tells us) by making it dependent on your future girlfriend whether or not you commit a sin that God has clearly told you is serious enough to loose you your eternal inheritance? Be a soldier for Christ- Struggle against “the world” in order to save your loved ones. You make up your own mind to follow Christ, and obey him no matter what. Then offer up all your struggles and prayers for them, God will help them in ways you don’t know- Just pray without ceasing and trust God.

Also what do you mean when you speak of repentance? It seems that you believe that if you sin (such as adultery) and “ask for forgiveness” without turning away from that evil thing, that this amounts to repentance and you can just go ahead and receive communion and go back home to your adulterous relationship and that makes you “ok with Jesus” according to your pastor? Genuine Sorrow (a prerequisite for repentance) involves a turning away from sin. Would I be “ok” with you if I slapped you across the face continuously and said “really really sorry about the slapping, by the way” and was just continuing with the slapping the whole time? Or if someone is sleeping with your wife and they “apologized” while persisting in having sex with her- would you count that as a genuine sorry? Why would we decide for ourselves that we can treat God that way, when we don’t do it with fellow human beings? Is it because we can’t see him?

 

[Marybeloved]

Then why are we fallen in Adam’s sin and not Eve’s?

Why does St. Paul go out of his way to tell us that all have died in Adam?

Why does St. Paul tell us that Eve was deceived but makes no such claim about Adam?

God Bless

We sin in Adam and not Eve because of a thing called Unity of the Human race. Human beings are truly one before God, different from the angels, who each bore the full consequences of each of their decisions alone- There’s no “original sin” for the devil and his angels, and no “incarnation” (I know the demons have no bodies- just mean, God did not become one of them) and no salvation. Not so with men who were in a very real way joined to each other in Adam, so that All people (including Eve) were “in” the original human being, Adam. That’s why his sin results in the fall of the entire human race, that’s why a second Adam can step into that place (center of the human race) and his act of perfect love to God can become our own, and we can enjoy the divine life that he obtains as a return of love for his perfect love/gift.

 

[alwayswondering]

I grew up Pentecostal, and all sin is equal in God’s eyes according to the religion. I don’t agree with that, though. I don’t think someone stealing a pack of gum from a drugstore is the same as murder. I do feel like some sins are worse than others. But, growing up the belief was if I have sex before I’m married, it’s the same as murder. Or if I steal something, then it’s the same as having an abortion. It’s all sin. And I disagree that it’s all equal.

 

[Marybeloved]

I grew up Pentecostal, and all sin is equal in God’s eyes according to the religion. I don’t agree with that, though. I don’t think someone stealing a pack of gum from a drugstore is the same as murder. I do feel like some sins are worse than others. But, growing up the belief was if I have sex before I’m married, it’s the same as murder. Or if I steal something, then it’s the same as having an abortion. It’s all sin. And I disagree that it’s all equal.

Well, I agree that fornication and all other kinds of illicit sex, not involving children or any type of coercion or violence, or any other factors that would increase the gravity of the sin, such as some type of sacrilege etc- I agree that this type of sin would not be equal to murder in gravity, but both done with full knowledge and consent, will send one to Hell if one dies unrepentant. Now I think I read somewhere that even in Hell, the pains experienced are not exactly equal. I for one do not believe, that the punishment of the devil and demons will equal that of any other creature for all the evil and harm they’ve done to themselves and to mankind.- Only God can punish justly so we had better not speculate too much on this.

But God has made it plain how he views sins of lust- Apart from the numerous new testament warnings, both by our Lord and the Apostles, one has only to see how God punished sins of this type in the Old Testament, and his uncompromising stance in their regard- They carry an almost “special” type of hatefulness in God’s sight among many other sins. This may not make sense to us if we have only a superficial understanding of God’s law, natural and supernatural. But God is pure love, so why so harsh (as it would appear to today’s morally lax man)?

I’d invite anyone interested to search Blessed JPII’s teaching on ‘the theology of the body’ for a sound teaching on the true meaning of sex and how it’s tied to true love in God’s plan for us. Bottom line is this- Man’s value in the eyes of his maker. God does not tolerate any ‘dehumanizing’ done to fellow men in any way. God would have us value our brethren in the light of their true value (love of neighbor) and he cuts no corners in this regard. It seems sexual sins degrades people in a particularly heinous way and God simply will not have it, even if it’s just a private dehumanizing done in the secrecy of our own hearts. So it’s God’s complete and perfect love for this creature called Adam that hates those sins so intensely.

 

[steve_b]

So, my sister and nearly everyone I know, will go to hell?
That’s even worse than to say that everyone who hasn’t accepted Jesus into his/her heart (although he knew about Christ and willingly reject Him) will go to hell… - And I already struggle with that.

What did scripture say happens to people who are fornicators or adulterers and remain that way? While they are alive, they are the walking dead in their sin. Death itself, only finalizes the direction and destination for their soul.
E:

as my pastor always says, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth in that sense that every Christian needs the Church, which is the community of all believers; He needs Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus with whom he can progress and help them progress on their journey on the path of Christ.
Because according to Paul, we should become more similar to Christ (i.e. Romans 8:29)

“Church” in that sense your pastor is using it, is too general and too confusing, She’s failing to recognize that Paul is talking to the Church that is already there. Her organization is NOT the Church.

As for Rom 8:1-29, did you see all the conditions Paul identifies for those who walk in the flesh vs those who are in Christ?

For a specific definition of those who are in the flesh see [Gal 5:19…]
E:

I don’t ask myself the question about authority.

Why?
E:

We are all children of God, all euqual. All brothers and sisters in Christ, there aren’t people who are higher or so than other…

There are obedient children and disobedient children. There will be a seperation at death between the obedient and the disobedient. Some who die in mortal sin will be seperated permanently

 

[steve_b]

So, my sister and nearly everyone I know, will go to hell?
That’s even worse than to say that everyone who hasn’t accepted Jesus into his/her heart (although he knew about Christ and willingly reject Him) will go to hell… - And I already struggle with that.

What did scripture say happens to people who are fornicators or adulterers and remain that way? While they are alive, they are the walking dead in their sin. Death itself, only finalizes the direction and destination for their soul.
E:

as my pastor always says, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth in that sense that every Christian needs the Church, which is the community of all believers; He needs Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus with whom he can progress and help them progress on their journey on the path of Christ.
Because according to Paul, we should become more similar to Christ (i.e. Romans 8:29)

“Church” in that sense your pastor is using it, is too general and too confusing, She’s failing to recognize that Paul is talking to the Church that is already there. Her organization is NOT the Church.

As for Rom 8:1-29, did you see all the conditions Paul identifies for those who walk in the flesh vs those who are in Christ?

For a specific definition of those who are in the flesh see [Gal 5:19…]
E:

I don’t ask myself the question about authority.

Why?
E:

We are all children of God, all euqual. All brothers and sisters in Christ, there aren’t people who are higher or so than other…

There are obedient children and disobedient children. There will be a seperation at death between the obedient and the disobedient. Those who die in mortal sin will be seperated permanently

 

[lisahiku]

no, Protestants believe that all sin is equally offensive in the eyes of God.
Which is really stupid.

 

[steve_b]

Well, priesthood of all believers teaches something different here.
All people are equal and the Holy Spirit gives his gifts to everyone what he wants and how much he wants (1 Cor 12:7-11). And so also pastors are normal people like every other as well, only that they have the gift to lead a parish and/or to preach.

1. • You confuse priesthood of believers and ministerial priesthood. I was speaking of the latter.
   • your link should be jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/107_1cor.html#12
   As far as the gifts Paul mentioned
   • utterance of wisdom,
   • utterance of knowledge
   • faith
   • gifts of healing
   • working of miracles,
   • prophecy,
   • distinguish between spirits,
   • various kinds of tongues,
   • interpretation of tongues.
   All these are in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit will guide a person to unity with, NOT division from, the Catholic Church. That also means guiding one to what the Catholic Church teaches… i.e. teaching on sin (mortal vs venial) as an example.
   E:
   

   I have “left” (meaning: So far, I’ve de facto left nothing. In Austria you have to register what Religion you are, and I am on the paper still Catholic!), when I was 16 years old, then I’ve studied the Bible privately until 2009, summer, then I’ve gotten to know someone of the “Charismatic Baptist Church” (Terms for Reborn Churches are different here than in the US), found out that what I’ve found out in my private Bible studies nearly fits a 100% to the Baptist’s view, unthrusted my life to Jesus and since then I’ve been an unoffical member of that Church (as baptism is missing, as well as resigning from the CC and entering this Baptist Church.)

   You must be a very selective reader.
   E:
   

   And this is also one thing I’ve written so often here on CAF, “Christ hasn’t started anything. He has always been a faithful Jew 'til his death!”
   The Apostles (after Pentecost maybe, or later) started the catholic Church.

   *Jn 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. *
   
   Esdra,
   
   Jesus started the Catholic Church
   E:
   

   Nevertheless, we are all Christians, believe all in Christ Jesus and are *all part of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. *- No matter which denomination you talk about. (Absolute must-have is, of course, the believe in the Trinity. Otherwise, at least for me, a sect is not Christian but something else. I am referring to JWs or LDS etc. in this case.)

   All Protestants regardless of denomination, are seperated from the Church.

 

[JonNC]

no, Protestants believe that all sin is equally offensive in the eyes of God.
Which is really stupid.

Well, not if one recognizes that all sins (can) separate us from God, when it is oft repeated and never confessed. But I don’t think that most protestants would say that mass murder is no more offenseive than, say, shoplifting.

Jon

 

[lisahiku]

The protestant person I talked to . ELCA , DID say that to me She said there was no difference in sin in God’s Eyes whether it be having an abortion or telling a lie.

Obviously there are different degrees of sin.

 

[Marybeloved]

Well, not if one recognizes that all sins (can) separate us from God, when it is oft repeated and never confessed. But I don’t think that most protestants would say that mass murder is no more offenseive than, say, shoplifting.

Jon

Well, I think I may understand what you’re trying to say here.

But not all sin separates us from God in the same manner or degree. There’s sin that leads to the total severing of charity that bonds us to God- sin that leads to death- that is death of the soul, like death of Adam’s soul in the garden. Dying in this state is, needless to say, dangerous.

There are sins that act like wounds to the bond of charity/sanctifying grace, sin that does not lead to death ie they weaken and make one susceptible to the commission of much more serious sins. In a way, while mortal sin is death, venial sin is sickness that if left untreated will definitely lead to death.

 

[Marybeloved]

I think it’s important to add, for the sake of clear understanding that there is an objective and subjective element here, and both must exist to have the effect of what Catholics call mortal sin or death of the soul, or death of charity, or loss of sanctifying grace.

The Objective element is the “grave matter” or serious sins- Like the sexual sins we’ve been discussing, or murder, abortion, serious hatred ie serious violations against charity even if just in the heart (such as wishing someone grave harm) etc. These are in themselves evil, whenever they are done in whatever circumstances, they are always objectively sinful- always.

But there’s the subjective element, this determines how culpable the person is in that objectively sinful act or omission. That is how much responsibility does the person bear for doing that forbidden thing? This determines his personal guilt and therefore the degree of punishment. That’s why all sin (venial and mortal) cannot properly be “sin” as far as the person is concerned if it’s done without knowledge of consent (this is where free will comes in).

Think of the two this way:

• On one hand you have God’s law- This is set independent from us, therefore it’s objective.
• On the other hand you have the person choosing to obey/disobey God’s law. This is subjective- Choice always depends on knowledge and freedom to pick options.

For example, a mother knows that there’s some fracas on the streets and it’s dangerous there for her kids, so she tells them they should not go outside the door. She has set a “law” for them that they each have to obey regardless of their subjective feelings about it.

Let’s say one of the children was asleep when mother spoke to the others, mother comes out of the kitchen to find the door open, her child outside. She calls her child back in, demands an explanation. This is judgment. If she understands that her child did not know about the rule, she will not punish him because, even if he broke the rule, he was not being disobedient to his mother.

For this reason small children and mentally impaired persons are incapable of sin, they have no fully developed reason to tell them that something is wrong apart from directives of parents etc, and no true ability to judge or chose to disobey God.

 

[Marybeloved]

I found these on a catholic website that illustrates the point.
Luke 12:47-48: “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.” (cf. Lev. 5:17, Lk. 23:34)

John 19:11: "'. . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.'"

Acts 17:30: "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent," (cf. Rom. 3:25)

1 Timothy 1:13: "though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief."

Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

The Bible also refers to (mortal) sins which - if not repented of - will exclude one from heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 1:8; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:16; Rev. 22:15).

 

[Marybeloved]

I found this on catholic answers, about different degrees of punishment in hell and different degree of glory in heaven:

The term “levels” of heaven and hell to describe the degrees of punishment or reward reflects the literary imagery of Dante Alighieri’s Divine Comedy more than the language of the Church. “Degrees” of perfection or punishment is the proper term. The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits.

The . . . Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)

Scriptural support may be found at: Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:8; 2 Corinthians 9:6; 1 Corinthians 15:41. The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one’s guilt.

The Union Councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments . . . This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins [cf. Matt. 11:22; Luke 20:47]. . . . ****St. Augustine teaches "In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others. Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt."**** (Ott, Fundamentals, 482)

Ludwig Ott’s book can be purchased from shop.catholic.com.

 

[Esdra]

Hi Everyone,

@Edras
No one has a right to substitute his own private judgment for God’s. If God clearly tells us that some sins will lock you out of heaven, we can’t decide on our own “But I don’t see that as serious enough to warrant eternal separation from God. I don’t think you could go to hell for that”

Doesn’t such a stance remind you of Adam and Eve at the garden? You can picture the scenario described where God tells them “The day you eat of the fruit of the tree…you shall surely DIE.” What rationalization do you think the Devil used to tempt them? “You will NOT die”! They then believed this rationalization (read here:lie!), disobeyed and well…died!!!- They lost God’s friendship “for good” in a sense, until God prepared the way back (our Lord). The Devil who is as old in this world as the world itself is up to his old tricks again with “modern” man. But surely God cannot allow these people I know to go to Hell! Surely homosexual sins, adultery, fornication- Surely these cannot send anyone to Hell! Don’t you fall for it!!! Believe what God tells you because He loves you so much. He wants the best for you and for all his children. “For God wants all to be saved”

Why would you want to risk your own soul, more precious than all the world (our lord tells us) by making it dependent on your future girlfriend whether or not you commit a sin that God has clearly told you is serious enough to loose you your eternal inheritance? Be a soldier for Christ- Struggle against “the world” in order to save your loved ones. You make up your own mind to follow Christ, and obey him no matter what. Then offer up all your struggles and prayers for them, God will help them in ways you don’t know- Just pray without ceasing and trust God.

Also what do you mean when you speak of repentance? It seems that you believe that if you sin (such as adultery) and “ask for forgiveness” without turning away from that evil thing, that this amounts to repentance and you can just go ahead and receive communion and go back home to your adulterous relationship and that makes you “ok with Jesus” according to your pastor? Genuine Sorrow (a prerequisite for repentance) involves a turning away from sin. Would I be “ok” with you if I slapped you across the face continuously and said “really really sorry about the slapping, by the way” and was just continuing with the slapping the whole time? Or if someone is sleeping with your wife and they “apologized” while persisting in having sex with her- would you count that as a genuine sorry? Why would we decide for ourselves that we can treat God that way, when we don’t do it with fellow human beings? Is it because we can’t see him?

Finally you got it… (I am not sure if steve did. - Concerning that I am thinking of having sex before marriage, if it happens that I get to know an atheist girlfriend.)

I know it’s hard…
Here in Central Europe (Austria) there are so few girls who really love God and Jesus as I do. (I would even, in the meantime, be willing to have a Catholic girlfriend, as all “Reborn Churches” together are a very small minority here in Austria, probably 10% of the whole population - counting two groups of Baptists, Pentecostals , Mennonites, Brethern and the very few non-denominational Churches (vineyard)!)
Nearly all are Agnostics or Atheists. - And, well, sex before marriage (despite young people marrying very seldom anyway, nowadays, or only, because it’s a cutom to marry in a Church), is the most normal thing here…

You write quite “protestant”. Are you a convert?

I know, I am a warrior of God, and I will try my best day by day not to fall into the traps of the Father of Lies, the Devil. But it’s really hard, I think the “world” has never been so “brutal”, so far away from God…

Nevertheless, it’s really cruel to think that nearly everybody I know will end up in Hell. Most of them because they have/had sex before marriage!
That really scares me…
What can I do about it? I’ve told some of them, well, but except that they laughed at me and/or said, “We don’t live in the Middle Ages anymore, boy!”, nothing happend…

I am not sure how this works with divorce and remarriage in my Baptist Church.
I think they are more liberal on this than the RCC, because they don’t see marriage as a sacrament.
And what they, as you have described, always emphasis is, that if you are a Child of God, that, if you ask Him for forgiveness, He will forgive you.
I mean, the woman I had mentioned in another post on this thread you were referring to, is divorced and now happily (re)married with he present husband. (Seen from the Catholic perspective, however, I think she really commited adultery, because, I assume, that she has been married in the RCC. - However, in the meantime, she is in the Baptist Church and has resigned from the RCC…)
I am not really sure if you’d need an annulement, as, as I have mentioned above, marriage is not a sacrament among Baptists. (In fact in Baptist Churches there are no sacraments in the Catholic sense at all…)

in Christ,

 

[Esdra]

What did scripture say happens to people who are fornicators or adulterers and remain that way? While they are alive, they are the walking dead in their sin. Death itself, only finalizes the direction and destination for their soul.

Hm, but I don’t want my sister going to hell. What shall I do?!

“Church” in that sense your pastor is using it, is too general and too confusing, She’s failing to recognize that Paul is talking to the Church that is already there. Her organization is NOT the Church.

He, not she, my Baptist Church doesn’t allow female pastors.
Yes, the church is already there. But up to know different emphasises (is this correct English?) of this one Church have risen up. - What is commonly called denominations nowadays.
But it’s still the ONE CHURCH.

As for Rom 8:1-29, did you see all the conditions Paul identifies for those who walk in the flesh vs those who are in Christ?

For a specific definition of those who are in the flesh see [Gal 5:19…]

And I am sure that a Child of God, like I am, will try its best to live in the Spirit.
We will stumble and fall, I also do that often, but Jesus will help us up again. If we ask Him and repent.

Why?

Mhm, I have found out in my bible studies that the first catholic Church at the time of the Apostles was more organised like, let’s say, a Brethern Church nowadays.
There was no hierarchy.
That only became much later with Emporer Justin (I guess this was the next Roman Emporer after Constantine, right?) when the CC became the national religion to save the Empire against the outwards threads - so that unity within the Empire is given.
And there, for me, the Roman Catholic Church arose.

There are obedient children and disobedient children. There will be a seperation at death between the obedient and the disobedient. Those who die in mortal sin will be seperated permanently

Would you consider a protestant Christian as disobedient?!

 

[Esdra]

1. • You confuse priesthood of believers and ministerial priesthood. I was speaking of the latter.
   • your link should be jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/107_1cor.html#12

1. 
   I think we already have discussed that: There is no ministerial priesthood anymore like it was in the OT. Jesus is the High Priest and He has done for us the one and perfect offering written in Malachi Chapter 1.
   We are now saved. All are priests with Jesus as the High Priests. There are, of course, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and everyone serves the Church as well as Jesus with His gifts. So a pastor has the gift of teaching and warning and this is how he serves the community and Jesus.
   
   As far as the gifts Paul mentioned
   

   • utterance of wisdom,
   • utterance of knowledge
   • faith
   • gifts of healing
   • working of miracles,
   • prophecy,
   • distinguish between spirits,
   • various kinds of tongues,
   • interpretation of tongues.

   All these are in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit will guide a person to unity with, NOT division from, the Catholic Church. That also means guiding one to what the Catholic Church teaches… i.e. teaching on sin (mortal vs venial) as an example.
   
   They are in the CC, as well as in any other Church who believes in Christ! (Any protestant denomination!)
   Jesus has promised ALL believers the Holy Spirit.
   

   You must be a very selective reader.

   No, I am an excat reader!
   

   *Jn 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. *
   
   Esdra,
   
   Jesus started the Catholic Church

   How can you interpret this verse that Jesus started something? Does it say? - No…
   

   All Protestants regardless of denomination, are seperated from the Church.

   Yes, from the CC, but not from Christ. And as Christ is the head, ALL believers are His body. (Also something my pastor once said.)
   He used a nice picture there: A man build up from other men and a circle with a cross as head of this man (the circle with the cross is Christ Himself.). - I would have liked to show you, but I couldn’t find a similar one in the internet…
   
   in Christ,

 

[JonNC]

Well, I think I may understand what you’re trying to say here.

But not all sin separates us from God in the same manner or degree. There’s sin that leads to the total severing of charity that bonds us to God- sin that leads to death- that is death of the soul, like death of Adam’s soul in the garden. Dying in this state is, needless to say, dangerous.

There are sins that act like wounds to the bond of charity/sanctifying grace, sin that does not lead to death ie they weaken and make one susceptible to the commission of much more serious sins. In a way, while mortal sin is death, venial sin is sickness that if left untreated will definitely lead to death.

Ok, I can understand this. Would you agree that in your second paragraph the sins that you say weaken our bond to charity/sanctifying grace can, if not confessed and oft repeated, can lead us away from the Spirit, and therefore could be considered “mortal”?

I think this is what Luther was thinking when he says: "In the sight of God sins are then truly venial when they are feared by men to be mortal.” And of course, the reverse is true, as well.

Jon

 

[Marybeloved]

Finally you got it… (I am not sure if steve did. - Concerning that I am thinking of having sex before marriage, if it happens that I get to know an atheist girlfriend.)

I know it’s hard…
Here in Central Europe (Austria) there are so few girls who really love God and Jesus as I do. (I would even, in the meantime, be willing to have a Catholic girlfriend, as all “Reborn Churches” together are a very small minority here in Austria, probably 10% of the whole population - counting two groups of Baptists, Pentecostals , Mennonites, Brethern and the very few non-denominational Churches (vineyard)!)
Nearly all are Agnostics or Atheists. - And, well, sex before marriage (despite young people marrying very seldom anyway, nowadays, or only, because it’s a cutom to marry in a Church), is the most normal thing here…

You write quite “protestant”. Are you a convert?

I know, I am a warrior of God, and I will try my best day by day not to fall into the traps of the Father of Lies, the Devil. But it’s really hard, I think the “world” has never been so “brutal”, so far away from God…

Nevertheless, it’s really cruel to think that nearly everybody I know will end up in Hell. Most of them because they have/had sex before marriage!
That really scares me…
What can I do about it? I’ve told some of them, well, but except that they laughed at me and/or said, “We don’t live in the Middle Ages anymore, boy!”, nothing happend…

I am not sure how this works with divorce and remarriage in my Baptist Church.
I think they are more liberal on this than the RCC, because they don’t see marriage as a sacrament.
And what they, as you have described, always emphasis is, that if you are a Child of God, that, if you ask Him for forgiveness, He will forgive you.
I mean, the woman I had mentioned in another post on this thread you were referring to, is divorced and now happily (re)married with he present husband. (Seen from the Catholic perspective, however, I think she really commited adultery, because, I assume, that she has been married in the RCC. - However, in the meantime, she is in the Baptist Church and has resigned from the RCC…)
I am not really sure if you’d need an annulement, as, as I have mentioned above, marriage is not a sacrament among Baptists. (In fact in Baptist Churches there are no sacraments in the Catholic sense at all…)

in Christ,

Hi, Edras,

Now that I read this post I feel a bit embarrassed for coming down on you a bit harshly. I can only imagine how hard it must be trying to be orthodox in a post Christian country like in most of Europe. My own country is at least nominally Christian, though in practice, virtually no one actually lives their life according to Christian morality. Believe me, I know how difficult it can be. You become virtually a freak among your peers and in society generally. Only the Muslims seem to have this implicit permission to be orthodox according to their faith and still be “normal” people according to society.

This question you’ve grappled with is something I can certainly appreciate. I’m single and I always wonder if there are guys who would date seriously without having sex- In my country, only Muslims practice this, and even they are starting to be influenced by the moral relativism of the present age. I hear some girls go to clubs skimpily dressed and do all kinds of things and then in the morning, they wear their full Islamic dress, even covering the face and you’d never know!! Many friends from High School taunt me a lot about my choices. But I believe something they don’t, so it makes sense. That Jesus Christ is God as he claimed to be, that he loves me and takes care of me even when I don’t see it. I remind myself that he has told me in the gospels to leave everything to follow him, and promised that I won’t fit into the world when I have given myself to him. The first Christians lived in a much more rotten world than we do, and they changed it!!

If you were still Catholic, I would have advised you to develop a strong devotion to Jesus in the blessed sacrament/Eucharist- Because I believe he’s truly there and waiting to take all the burdens, complaints, problems, pain, anguish that you experience. But right now, you can still speak to him in the secrecy of your own soul. First, believe that he is really there with you, even if you don’t see him. Then speak to him with the naked honesty of a small child. Lord, this is so haaard! Why am I the only one! With Jesus you can complain, cry, love, praise- whatever is actually going on with you is the substance of prayer. Say everything and then ask for his own wisdom and listen. Some way somehow, he’ll answer you. He’s the best!!! And he’ll take care of your other concerns too. Believe me, if you ask, he’ll bring you a chaste girlfriend when the time is right.

I don’t consider myself a convert from protestantism, but my family is protestant and they watch a lot of TBN and God TV here, maybe the lingo has rubbed off on me somehow, lol. But the substance of what I say is in all honesty, very catholic. But I was what I’d say can best fall under agnosticism. I tried to get baptized into the Church as a child but my family became protestant and put a stop to it. I fell into a bit of indifference. In my late teens I read a lot on religion, (almost became a Muslim) and when I turned 18, I was baptized. I was lucky to come across a group of very orthodox Catholics who gave classes on doctrine and formed my faith, and introduced me to the prayer and the life of faith.