Do Protestants by and large think Catholics are 'legalistic?'

[whatevergirl]

I ask, because from time to time, I listen to a few Protestant radio programs on my way home from work, and often, the hosts will refer to Catholics as legalistic, or they will be speaking about legalism, and I get the strong sense that they are referring to Catholics.
What exactly does this mean? When I think of the word legalism, I think of the Pharisees, who were hypocrits, and believed in following certain laws over being kind and loving to one’s neighbor.

I was hopeful we could start a dialogue on this, that stays friendly of course. Look forward to your replies.

 

[LutheranDK]

I ask, because from time to time, I listen to a few Protestant radio programs on my way home from work, and often, the hosts will refer to Catholics as legalistic, or they will be speaking about legalism, and I get the strong sense that they are referring to Catholics.
What exactly does this mean? When I think of the word legalism, I think of the Pharisees, who were hypocrits, and believed in following certain laws over being kind and loving to one’s neighbor.

I was hopeful we could start a dialogue on this, that stays friendly of course. Look forward to your replies.

I can’t speak for “protestants” in general, but I can speak for myself

Do I consider RCs legalistic?
Well…
That’s actually a different question to answer. Because I get a lot of contradicting information about what RCs actually believe.

Let’s take an example: The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification does, it seems, established consensus between the RCC and Lutherans in the matter of Justification; that it takes place SOLELY by God’s grace. However, inhere I hear RCs call such teachings “heresies”, “wishful thinking”, “lawlessness” (typo?), “invented doctrine”, etc.

So the answer to your question would be a counter-question:
“How do you claim that a person gets saved? Is it SOLELY through God’s grace, which then produces works, or is it by God’s grace AND works?” The difference may seem subtle, but it makes all the difference.

 

[whatevergirl]

We believe strictly salvation is given to us by the grace of God…by the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross. When it comes to works, we believe in what St Paul taught…faith without works is ‘dead.’ If we are to be hearers of the Word, we are to be doers also…do you agree? Catholics who say that we can earn our way into heaven would be inaccurate. But, I think where people get tripped up, is that as Catholics, we believe that if we are to say we are followers of Christ, we should be living out our faith as best as we can…but still, anything that I achieve for the Kingdom of God, is only because of the grace of God.

 

[LutheranDK]

We believe strictly salvation is given to us by the grace of God…by the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross. When it comes to works, we believe in what St Paul taught…faith without works is ‘dead.’

I believe it was James who used that phrase
But I agree! Faith without works is as dead as a body without spirit.
whatevergirl;4902800:

If we are to be hearers of the Word, we are to be doers also…do you agree?

Of course. The debate shouldn’t be whether or not we need to do good works as Christians, but WHY we should do good works. That is: Do works have a part in earning our justification, or are they a result of our justification?

Catholics who say that we can earn our way into heaven would be inaccurate. But, I think where people get tripped up, is that as Catholics, we believe that if we are to say we are followers of Christ, we should be living out our faith as best as we can…but still, anything that I achieve for the Kingdom of God, is only because of the grace of God.

I agree wholeheartedly…honestly! As Christians we cannot say: “We don’t need to do good works at all, because Jesus did everything for us”
(Although someone DID say that to me today, and called me a pharisee when I rebuked her )

Christ has done everything neccessary for our salvation, and to THAT we cannot add. But that does not mean that we should just sit on our behinds and do nothing until He returns. Not at all

 

[MelanieAnne]

OK, I’m a former-Protestant now Catholic and I’d like to “chime in”.

I think both “grace only” and “works” subjects are riddled with misunderstanding and qualifications and if everyone sat down and ironed out the confusion they would find that everyone actually believes pretty much the same thing. When “grace” folks come to this forum and we ask them about those that have been “born again” and then go out and commit terrible atrocities they will invariably backtrack and say that the “born again” experience wasn’t valid. Why? Because if it had been, then the terrible atrocities would not have ensued. So they obviously believe that “works” ensue from “grace”.

Faith without works truly is DEAD. But what does that really mean? It means that Faith is not just something we “believe” it is something that we DO, it’s is an active thing, a “lifestyle” for lack of a better word. I may be paraphrasing but I’m sure everyone will recognize “Let your light so shine that others may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven”. We should be able to be identified as Christians by the way we live our lives. It should be obvious. If we merely pay lip-service to a belief, but do not live our lives in accordance with that belief, it’s not a belief, it’s more of a convenient slogan.

Catholics know that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD Not just the Catholics, or the Protestants, or whatever. He died for the sins of everyone ~ the Buddhists, the Jews, the Muslims, the Atheists and every other group you can think of. We have all been given this grace out of the infinite and unconditional Love of God. Why? Because He wants us back. He created us because He loves us, He delights in us. He loves, even if we can’t, even the most horrific sinner and He wants that person back. Why? Because He made us. I submit any parent can identify with this in some small way. We love all our children and if some of them take a bad path, we still love them and want the best for them, and hope for them, that they will find the right way.

I’m not really sure that the real question is “grace” v. “works”. It may be, acknowledging that grace is available, what do we do with it? It would appear, from more than one thread on this forum, that some believe it doesn’t matter what we do, EVER, everyone is saved by grace and that’s the end of it (and thank you Jesus!) and others believe that there needs to be some sort of acceptance of that grace on our part and, having accepted that, we at least make an effort to live up to some sort of higher standard of behavior. I submit that’s where the real dichotomy is.

 

[jmcrae]

The Catholic religion could certainly be practiced legalistically, and it often is.

Jesus’ remedy for legalism was not to throw out the rules, or tell people to be disobedient, or say “Anything goes.” Rather, He said, "if they tell you to walk one mile, walk two miles. IIf they ask for your coat, give them both your coat and your jacket. If they want you to tithe, give a double-tithe. "

I think He would tell legalistic Catholics today, “If they tell you to arrive at Mass by the time of the reading of the Gospel, try arriving before the priest does. If they tell you to abstain from meat on Fridays, abstain from meat on Wednesdays, too. If they tell you to fast for one hour, fast for two hours. If they tell you that you must be at Mass on all Sundays and all holy days of obligation, go on a weekday sometimes, too. If they say you have to go to Confession once a year, go three or four times - or even more. And when the priest is grumpy and speaks to you in a sharp tone, say something kind and gentle to him in return.”

That’s what I think Jesus would say.

 

[whatevergirl]

**Your explanation is awesome, thank you!

I think the ‘real’ question is…can one *lose ***his/her salvation? To many Protestants, they feel that Catholics believe if we sin ‘enough,’ or don’t repent enough, or not contrite…etc…that we will lose our salvation. (thus the legalistic way they think we look at things) The radio host said…you can never lose your salvation, but as you say…what does THAT mean? Does that mean we take for granted the awesome miracle of Jesus’ work upon the cross, and just go about sinning…carelessly…because we know we are saved, regardless? There is a subtle implication that no matter how much we sin, we will never lose our salvation. I have a hard time explaining that (although the words are in my mind), so if anyone wants to chime in on that note, I’d be grateful.

LutheranDK–Oops, James…I always have credited that phrase to Paul. :blush:I appreciate the correction.

 

[whatevergirl]

The Catholic religion could certainly be practiced legalistically, and it often is.

Jesus’ remedy for legalism was not to throw out the rules, or tell people to be disobedient, or say “Anything goes.” Rather, He said, "if they tell you to walk one mile, walk two miles. IIf they ask for your coat, give them both your coat and your jacket. If they want you to tithe, give a double-tithe. "

I think He would tell legalistic Catholics today, “If they tell you to arrive at Mass by the time of the reading of the Gospel, try arriving before the priest does. If they tell you to abstain from meat on Fridays, abstain from meat on Wednesdays, too. If they tell you to fast for one hour, fast for two hours. If they tell you that you must be at Mass on all Sundays and all holy days of obligation, go on a weekday sometimes, too. If they say you have to go to Confession once a year, go three or four times - or even more. And when the priest is grumpy and speaks to you in a sharp tone, say something kind and gentle to him in return.”

That’s what I think Jesus would say.

I agree! But, would those things be legalistic do you think? I think asking someone to arrive on time for mass is courtesy, not necessarily …legalism. I consider legalism to be…following the Commandments with no joy, or Cathecism with no joy. I think the beauty of our faith, is that in following the rules, there will be great joy to come…right? The Pharisees followed the laws, but seemed to lack joy and kindness…and love, above all. Without love, all the rules become rudimentary, I would imagine.

 

[piperspop]

I think that if Jesus were to come back today with a message for all Christians, Roman catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, baptist, et al, He would look around at all the books of canon law, all the theology text and treatises where its just picky, picky, picky, and say: "*It was never meant to be this complicated, let’s try again…

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.* Matthew 22: 37-40

All churches have gotten too legalistic, trying desperately to differentiate themselves from other churches, rather than trying to get together to resolve differences, so we may all be one, as Christ has commanded.

 

[LutheranDK]

The Catholic religion could certainly be practiced legalistically, and it often is.

Jesus’ remedy for legalism was not to throw out the rules, or tell people to be disobedient, or say “Anything goes.”

Neither is mine…or Luther’s for that matter

That’s what I think Jesus would say.

And I think you’re right

 

[whatevergirl]

I think that if Jesus were to come back today with a message for all Christians, Roman catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, baptist, et al, He would look around at all the books of canon law, all the theology text and treatises where its just picky, picky, picky, and say: "*It was never meant to be this complicated, let’s try again…

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.* Matthew 22: 37-40

All churches have gotten too legalistic, trying desperately to differentiate themselves from other churches, rather than trying to get together to resolve differences, so we may all be one, as Christ has commanded.

** I tend to agree. I think that the rules are in essence God’s love for us, but when we start nitpicking at our brothers and sisters in Christ, for not following ever law to the T…it can cause us to lose our love, ultimately. Good point!!**

 

[jmcrae]

**I agree! But, would those things be legalistic do you think? I think asking someone to arrive on time for mass is courtesy, not necessarily …legalism. I consider legalism to be…following the Commandments with no joy, or Cathecism with no joy. I think the beauty of our faith, is that in following the rules, there will be great joy to come…right? **

It’s like when you know the rules of a game really well, you can have way more fun than you would if you were just making stuff up on your own, because everyone who plays the game all knows the same rules, and so you can all play together, in harmony.

The Pharisees followed the laws, but seemed to lack joy and kindness…and love, above all. Without love, all the rules become rudimentary, I would imagine.

 

[VARC]

I am a former Roman Catholic. One of the big reasons I rejected Rome was because of the overemphasis on legalism. An example would be the ban on methotrexate (MTX) for treating tubal ectopic preganacy. In an tubal ectopic pregnancy, the embryo has zero chance of survival. MTX would dissolve the embryo and save the woman’s life and her fallopian tube. Roman Catholics label that murder. They have a different approach…

The woman must seek to have surgery to have her tube (with the embryo inside it) removed and thrown in the garbage. To them, that isn’t murder. But the problem is that no insurance company is going to pay for the surgery because they correctly label it as unnecessary. So the only “moral” choice for the woman to do at that point is to do nothing and go to the emergency room when the tube ruptures and roll the dice with her own life. It may be grossly irresponsible but to Rome its the only moral choice if surgery is impossible.

This is the height of pharisaical legalism

Then He said: "Woe also to you experts in the law! You load people with burdens that are hard to carry, yet you yourselves don’t touch these burdens with one of your fingers.

 

[adolfo123]

“How do you claim that a person gets saved? Is it SOLELY through God’s grace, which then produces works, or is it by God’s grace AND works?” The difference may seem subtle, but it makes all the difference.

James 2:24… from my understanding (do not quote me I am learning ) we Catholics believe Jesus saved us and that our good works are of Christ grace also. producing merit in us that originally come from the merits of Jesus on the cross. We believe we will be judged by our deeds as Jesus stated in the gospels and in the book of revelation…

this is how I see it and maybe this statement would help to sum up this justification : For it’s not I that works but Christ that works in me… my view

later God bless…

 

[SSTeacher]

I ask, because from time to time, I listen to a few Protestant radio programs on my way home from work, and often, the hosts will refer to Catholics as legalistic, or they will be speaking about legalism, and I get the strong sense that they are referring to Catholics.
What exactly does this mean? When I think of the word legalism, I think of the Pharisees, who were hypocrits, and believed in following certain laws over being kind and loving to one’s neighbor.

I was hopeful we could start a dialogue on this, that stays friendly of course. Look forward to your replies.

Perhaps the Catholic Church’s designation of particular sins as mortal sins is one of the reasons why some Protestants view Catholics as legalistic? There can never be a feeling of security for anybody living under the kind of belief system here proposed. It is the idea that at any moment a slip may be made that will put a person in immediate jeopardy of eternal damnation. It’s easy to equate it with having the sword of Damocles hanging over your head every minute of every single day. The picture of a God suddenly getting so mad that He will immediately damn you to hell for all eternity and leave you hanging with that terrible threat weighing heavily upon you until you take the appropriate action to get back into the right relationship with Him is, as far as I’m aware, unknown in Evangelical circles.

Speculatively,
Mick

 

[adolfo123]

Perhaps the Catholic Church’s designation of particular sins as mortal sins is one of the reasons why some Protestants view Catholics as legalistic? There can never be a feeling of security for anybody living under the kind of belief system here proposed. It is the idea that at any moment a slip may be made that will put a person in immediate jeopardy of eternal damnation. It’s easy to equate it with having the sword of Damocles hanging over your head every minute of every single day. The picture of a God suddenly getting so mad that He will immediately damn you to hell for all eternity and leave you hanging with that terrible threat weighing heavily upon you until you take the appropriate action to get back into the right relationship with Him is, as far as I’m aware, unknown in Evangelical circles.

Speculatively,
Mick

how can this be unknown to them, do they not read their bibles lololol and we catholics are know of not reading the bible lolol well here is the verse about moral and venial sins …

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother – provided that it is not a deadly sin. There is sin that leads to death and I am not saying you must pray about that.

 

[SSTeacher]

how can this be unknown to them, do they not read their bibles lololol and we catholics are know of not reading the bible lolol well here is the verse about moral and venial sins …

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother – provided that it is not a deadly sin. There is sin that leads to death and I am not saying you must pray about that.

Many thanks for your contribution but the designation of sins into categories of “mortal” and “venial” is a distinctively Catholic understanding hence my speculation as to why some Protestants might possibly see Catholics as legalistic. Do you have any thoughts as to why some Protestants think along those lines?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[MDK]

Perhaps the Catholic Church’s designation of particular sins as mortal sins is one of the reasons why some Protestants view Catholics as legalistic? There can never be a feeling of security for anybody living under the kind of belief system here proposed. It is the idea that at any moment a slip may be made that will put a person in immediate jeopardy of eternal damnation. It’s easy to equate it with having the sword of Damocles hanging over your head every minute of every single day. The picture of a God suddenly getting so mad that He will immediately damn you to hell for all eternity and leave you hanging with that terrible threat weighing heavily upon you until you take the appropriate action to get back into the right relationship with Him is, as far as I’m aware, unknown in Evangelical circles.

Speculatively,
Mick

So, it’s unfortunately yet another Protestant misconception. For those who subcribe to the false teaching of sola fide and once saved, always saved, the idea of losing your salvation by your own consent is daunting. Nevertheless, it’s true.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

James 2:24… from my understanding (do not quote me I am learning ) we Catholics believe Jesus saved us and that our good works are of Christ grace also. producing merit in us that originally come from the merits of Jesus on the cross. We believe we will be judged by our deeds as Jesus stated in the gospels and in the book of revelation…

this is how I see it and maybe this statement would help to sum up this justification : For it’s not I that works but Christ that works in me… my view

later God bless…

Gabriel of 12:

I find your definition flawless and biblical. Upon reading these posts, I believe Non Catholics confuse the differences between disciplines and what Jesus commanded, into a false notion of Legalism? Jesus did not ask his Church, He commanded his church. The Roman Catholic church will never wavier the Lords commands for any man or majority populace misconception of her mission commanded by God himself.

Sometimes we forget we are part of God’s Kingdom, and we are coheirs to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, not a democracy. Church disciplines come in many forms, either in Holy orders to the Laity fasting and praying. I dont see Legalism in Church disciplines when the Father in heaven and Mother Church shows unconditional Love for her children.

I think Legalism is a very misinformed mind set to discount the Love God has for his children. For what Parent that loves their child does not discipline them for the greater good?

Peace be with you

 

[piperspop]

Gabriel of 12:

I find your definition flawless and biblical. Upon reading these posts, I believe Non Catholics confuse the differences between disciplines and what Jesus commanded, into a false notion of Legalism?

I believe that the members Roman Catholic Church are the ones who confuse disciplines and Jesus’ commands. There is only ONE unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the deliberate refusal to accept God’s grace. The RCC has so many rules that its people (not all, but a great many) try hard to follow the rules, but forget what the game is all about.

The point of all this (life) is to be more God-like every day, to be more a disciple of Jesus, and to establish a relationship with Him. So that we grow in holiness. The RCC, IMHO, has, over the 2000 years, become like the old Jewish law, so full of rules that the essence is in danger of being lost.

The church is not here to give us salvation, but rather to help us along the way, by providing sources of grace through the sacraments, and instruction so we stay on the path. In many ways, it seems the rules have become cumbersome, and the reasons for the rituals forgotten. Used to be meat on Friday was a sin, now it is not. That is the problem with disciplines, they change over time.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I can’t remember ever hearing a sermon on having a personal relationship with Jesus alone. No church, no Mary, no Saints needed, just me and the Lord. That would be welcome to hear.